Preamble

The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in. the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Coventry Canal Navigation Bill,

Medway Lower Navigation Bill,

Oxford Canal Bill,

Rochdale Canal Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Orders of the Day — SUPPLY.

Considered in Committee.

[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

Orders of the Day — CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1934.

CLASS V.

MINISTRY OF LABOUR.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,190,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Labour and Subordinate Departments, including sums payable by the Exchequer to the Unemployment Fund, Grants to Associations, Local Authorities and others under the Unemployment Insurance, Labour Exchanges and other Acts: Expenses of the Industrial Court; Contribution towards the Expenses of the International Labour Organisation (League of Nations); Expenses of Training and Removal of Workers and their Dependants; Grants for assisting the voluntary provision of occupation for unemployed persons; and sundry services, including services arising out of the war.

11.7 a.m.

The MINISTER of LABOUR (Mr. Oliver Stanley): Hon. Members will perhaps excuse me if I take a little time in explaining the rather complicated provisions which appear in this Supplementary Estimate. The first sub-head, "A—Salaries," is one which requires little explanation. The increase of £5,000 in. the salaries at headquarters is due entirely to the restoration of part of the cuts in salaries. The sum of £260,000 which is required for the salaries at the outstations is made up of three separate items. The sum of £45,000 is required for the restoration of the cuts, £15,000 is due to the new scale of pay for employment officers and clerks which came into force on 1st January, and the remaining £200,000 is due to the extra cost of staff, largely in respect of the additional duties which arose out of the Unemployment Act, 1934. The chief causes for that increase were the new procedure, including the much more complicated ratio rule, which required more staff to work out, the change over to the unemployment assistance allowances, which began on the 7th
January, the expansion of the authorised courses for juveniles and the increased number of juveniles who entered insurance in the new group, 14–16, which was the result of last year's Act. In addition to the results of the legislation extra money was required because we had, during the year, largely increased the activity of the employment exchanges in connection with placing and transference work both for adults and for juveniles. I am sure the Committee will not cavil at any increased expenditure for what I regard as the primary and most important function of employment exchanges, finding work, and not merely the payment of benefits.
The next item is a rise of £300,000 under the heading G.1 as a contribution to the Unemployment Fund for insurance benefit. Here, again, is an increased contribution which ought to be welcomed by everybody in the Committee, because it is the result of increased employment during the year. The contribution of the Exchequer to the Unemployment Fund is regulated by the payments made by employers and workpeople, and that, again, is regulated by the number of people who are in work. In this case there is also the additional reason that the number of juveniles who became insured as the result of the Act of 1934 was greater than was estimated, and there, again, the contribution of the Exchequer is larger.
The next sub-head, G.2, is considerably more complicated. The original arrangements for the transference of some of the functions of the Ministry to the Unemployment Assistance Board were as follows: that transitional payment, even though, after the first appointed day, it was being administered by the Board, would be paid out of the Unemployment Fund as hitherto up to the second appointed day, and after the second appointed day the Unemployment Assistance Fund would be responsible not only for those who had hitherto been on transitional payment but for the new class which, on the second appointed day, would be brought under the Board—that is, the new class of able-bodied who had not been on transitional payment but on public assistance. Hon. Members will recollect that I did introduce a Supplementary Estimate which provided for the expenditure of the Board after the second appointed day, which it was then assumed
would be 1st March. The result of the postponement of the second appointed day is that not only will the able-bodied who were on public assistance not be brought under the scheme, but that those who are on transitional payment and who are now receiving their allowances through the Board will be paid for not by the Unemployment Assistance Fund but by the Unemployment Fund as hitherto.
The real result is that the finance of those on transitional payment will be as was put forward in the Estimates presented last year, because there the calculations were based on the -Unemployment Fund being responsible for transitional payment through the whole year, with a note that if before that time the Fund ceased to be responsible then the balance would be surrendered.

Mr. GEORGE HALL: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how the £5,000,000 Supplementary Estimate has been disposed of?

Mr. STANLEY: I intended to explain that, but I first of all wanted to make plain what was the machinery both before and after the appointed day. As the hon. Gentleman says, the Supplementary Estimate which the House of Commons passed for the Unemployment Assistance Board, that is to say, for the Unemployment Assistance Fund, was £5,000,000, of which about £4,250,000 was for the payment of allowances after the second appointed day on 1st March. As against that, it was stated in the Estimate that there would be a surplus on the Ministry of Labour account, as opposed to the Unemployment Assistance Fund and of £3,100,000, which would be surrendered. The effect of the postponement of the second appointed day, with the result that the Unemployment Fund of the Ministry of Labour account will bear the cost of transitional payments throughout March, is that there will be no surrender of the £3,100,000 which we thought would be surplus, and, secondly, that I have to ask the Committee for this additional sum of £1,000,000.
The reasons for this increase above the original Estimate of last year depends upon a certain number of factors of none of which it is possible to calculate the precise effect, but which, put together, give a general picture for this increase.
There are three factors which have led to an increase of expenditure on transitional payments and one factor which has led to a decrease. The three factors which have led to an increase are, first of all, that even before 1st July, when the restoration of the cut took effect, a slightly higher average payment was being made to those on transitional payment than had been estimated at the time that the Estimates were prepared and put before the House in the spring of last year. Secondly, there was the factor of the restoration of the cuts after 1st July, and thirdly there was the factor of the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Act, which embodied the standstill agreement and which, of course, increased the cost of transitional payments by giving to those of the transitional class not only the benefit of the transitional payment that they had before but the benefit of any advantage due to the Board's scale, if, in their own case, the Board's scale was more favourable to them.
The total effect of those three factors which led to an increase in the expenditure on transitional payment during the year is about £4,600,000. The factor of the decrease was the lower numbers of people on transitional payments during the year than were estimated, and that was due to two factors, first of all to a lower number on the live register of unemployment, and secondly to a rather bigger effect of the transfer of people from transitional payment to full benefit than had been anticipated. The amount of decrease of expenditure due to these causes is estimated at about £3,600,000, and, deducting that from the £4,600,000 of increase, we get the figure of £1,000,000 as the net increase, which figure. appears in this Estimate. With regard to the question which the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. Hall) asked me, the House has sanctioned, of course, the expenditure by the Board of the £4,250,000 during March on allowances to the two classes of the unemployed. Owing to the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Act and the postponement of the second appointed day, they will be unable to spend that money, and it will be available for surrender at the end of the year.
Now I will pass to the next item of the Estimate in regard to grants to public
assistance authorities in connection with their work on transitional payments. This is purely an accountancy increase, due to the fact that hitherto when the arrangements for the local authorities have been continuing, the claims which they make have been inclined to be considerably in arrear, and it was estimated that a larger proportion of these claims would not fall to be paid until the next financial year. The fact that the arrangement terminated on 7th January has obviously had some effect in accelerating the putting forward of these claims, with the result that we shall pay a rather bigger proportion in this financial year and consequently a rather smaller proportion in the next financial year.
The next increase of £20,000 deals with loans and grants to facilitate transfer of adults and juveniles. A greater number of advances has been made to workers for their fares to take up employment, and the figure is increased from £24,000 to £30,000. A higher number of grants has been made towards removal expenses of workers and their families transferred from depressed areas, amounting to £17,000, an increase of £7,000. There has been an increase in juvenile transference which involves an increase in fares and an increase in maintenance towards the cost of living, accounting for an extra £7,000. In the next item, an additional sum of £13,000 is required as a contribution of the Exchequer to the National Council of Social Service. In the original Estimate, provision was only made for this contribution until the end of the calendar year, 31st December; this Supplementary Estimate deals with the grant made for the three months between the end of the calendar year and the end of the current financial year.
I turn now to the anticipated saving which has to be deducted from the £1,648,000 of additional expenditure. The principal part of the anticipated saving which has to be brought into account is in regard to courses of instruction for unemployed juveniles. There, the Committee will see, £170,000 less has been spent than was estimated. The reason for the decrease in the anticipated expenditure is threefold. The first reason is that the Act was brought into operation rather later than was originally anticipated, and therefore less time was available for getting the
courses started during the financial year. The second reason was that greater difficulties were encountered than were anticipated in getting centres started in South Wales. The chief difficulty in almost every case has been the finding of suitable premises for the courses, because we have taken the view, with which I think the Committee will agree, that to start these courses in unsuitable or improper premises would have a most deleterious effect, and that delay is worth while if it means in the end that more suitable premises will be found. Thirdly, some of the decrease has been due to the fact that juveniles leaving school have been absorbed into employment at a better rate than was originally anticipated, and, therefore, fewer of them have been under the necessity of attending these centres. The other item of saving, namely, that of £88,000 under Sub-head M (Training of young unemployed men), is due entirely to a smaller average attendance at both training and instructional centres than was anticipated when the Estimate was framed last year.
The only other point with which it is necessary to deal is the item of £200,000 for appropriations-in-aid, which, deducted from the £1,390,000 at which we have arrived, gives the final figure of £1,190,000 for which this Supplementary Estimate asks. The appropriations-in-aid are increased by £300,000, as a result largely of the increased expenditure under Sub-head A (iii) and under Subhead H.2. The increased expenditures which in the first place are borne on this Vote are repaid to the Ministry out of the Unemployment Fund, and account for £300,000. From that we have to deduct £100,000, which would have been the contribution of the Fund to the provision for junior instruction centres and for the training of young men both in instructional centres and in training centres. Owing to the fact that the expenditure in these directions has been less than was anticipated, the appropriation-in-aid from the Fund has been less than would be expected, and, therefore, this £100,000 has to be deducted from the increase of £300,000, leaving a net increased appropriation-in-aid of £200,000, and a total Supplementary Estimate of £1,190,000, which is the sum that I now ask the Committee to sanction.

11.29 a.m.

Mr. LAWSON: The Committee have by this time been led to expect that, when the Minister of Labour is explaining estimates or supplementary estimates, it is no light task for him. The Supplementary Estimate which is now before us is perhaps the most complicated one that the Minister of Labour has ever been asked to explain to the House, and I think the Committee will have very great sympathy with him in his task, which he has performed, if I may say so, with distinction. I think, however, it is very unfair of the Government to ask the Committee to sit and listen to an explanation like that at this early hour of the day. I do not know what the rest of the Committee felt like, but I felt as though I was undergoing a kind of mental surgery. Complicated as was the state of finances in relation to the Ministry of Labour before the time of this Government, it was as simple as the alphabet compared with what it is now.
As I have said, We have much sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman in his task; he must have put in a lot of work in order to try to help us to understand this Supplementary Estimate; but really the finances connected with this matter of Ministry of Labour administration have got into a hopeless tangle—there is no other word for it. I am sure that, if a Labour majority had been sitting on the other side of the House, and had got into a position where they had to add and subtract, to give and to cancel, in the way that the right hon. Gentleman has had to do this morning, the Government would not have lasted two minutes. I can imagine the right hon. Gentleman himself sitting here on an occasion like this, and the Postmaster-General too. They would have had all the array of talent out in order to use the knife upon the Government; and, what is worse, the Press, which is present at our discussions, would certainly have had something to serve up to the public in the morning newspapers, and they would have served it up in such a way that it would have led the public to ask, "Well, did you ever know such a Government to rule the country as this one?"
The Estimate that we are discussing this morning is not a very large one, but is a very important one; it deals with many very important points. The additions of £5,000 and £15,000 which
are due mainly to the restoration of cuts are welcome as far as we are concerned; they are payments to the staff; but the item of £200,000 for new legislation is one that must give the Committee food for thought. The right hon. Gentleman explained in detail, and we appreciated the detail of his explanation, what the £200,000 was for; but this item compels one to ask just where we are going with this new legislation, which was supposed to simplify everything, and to deal directly in a newer and more thorough way with the unemployed both juvenile and adult. This is a new item. I should like to know just how much ultimately we shall have to pay for this new legislation.

Mr. STANLEY: The hon. Gentleman will note that this £200,000 is not brought about by the operation of new legislation, but by the development of the existing function of the Department in placing and industrial transference.

Mr. LAWSON: Yes, I agree with that. I do not know that the right hon. Gentleman told us what was the exact sum for new legislation, but it is an indication of what is to come. I wonder whether we are going to be told the cost of this new administration? We were told that the finances of the administration connected with unemployment were going to be put on a firm foundation. I think that was one of the items on which the election was fought. The sliding about and the uncertainty in conection with the finances of unemployment was to be ended and we were to know just where we were. I will give the Committee this warning. Some day we shall have an opportunity of examining meticulously the finance of these new schemes, that is the new Act and all the methods that have been put into operation in order to put the unemployment finances on what is called a firm foundation. While the unemployed have been punished because of reductions and embarrassed in many ways as the result of all this new method it will be found that, instead of placing the unemployment finances upon a firm foundation, it is very possible that they are on a much more sandy foundation than ever they were before. The third item, G.2, among other things deals with the standstill arrangement. I am glad to see the item for the restoration of the 10 per cent. for the transition people. I think that is one of the proofs
of the position that we took up during the discussions on the Bill. We could not get anything definite—the Minister did not know what the position was—but the 10 per cent. has been restored as far as it was possible with such shifting amounts. To that extent, of course, we welcome the item.
There is also the item for the extra allowance under the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Act. That is to meet the needs of the standstill arrangement. As far as the standstill arrangement is concerned, there are complaints. I think a good many of them are due to the difficulty to the ordinary layman of understanding standstill arrangement. I get cases sent to me. I have had one or two this morning. They pour in regularly. Most people in the 20 odd divisions in the North-East seem to think that they elected me, because they send their cases on to me. They set me a puzzle. I wish, when I am working them out, that I had some of those gentlemen, who are mainly conspicuous by their absence to-day, who made those very elaborate calculations on those benches during the time the regulations were being discussed. We had them putting up imaginary cases which would have done credit to a senior wrangler. I scratched my head and wondered if I had been properly schooled in arithmetic in my young days. If we do not spend too much time over this arrangement to-day, it must definitely be understood that we are not only against the regulations which have given effect to this kind of thing, but that the hostility that we expressed during the passing of the Act, of which this is the result, has been underlined and emphasised by time and by experience, and we shall certainly not let up one bit until there is an end of Part II of this Act.
I want to draw attention to the item for junior instruction centres, on which there is a saving of £100,000. The Committee might well give some attention to this matter, because the right hon. Gentleman said that the cause of this position generally was that the Act had come into operation late and that they had not been able to get under way at the proper time. That is a very ingenuous explanation of the situation. The question is, as it was originally, will his junior instruction method meet the
need of dealing with the juvenile unemployed.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne): I am afraid the hon. Gentleman cannot raise that point on the Supplementary Estimate. No doubt he will be able to develop the argument on Monday.

Mr. LAWSON: I only wanted to gay that it is a strange thing that there is a saving on this particular item. There are large numbers of children who are not in juvenile instruction centres, and therefore there is some need for the Minister to explain why there is such a saving. According to the latest figures published, there are 45,816 boys and 43,000 odd girls between 14 and 16 who, according to the Ministry of Labour Gazette, are unemployed, a total of 89,000. The Minister told me yesterday that during the week ending 6th February there were 32,000 boys and girls who attended classes at juvenile instruction centres and that the average daily attendance was 27,000, but according to the published figures there are 89,000 of these juveniles unemployed, and, in fact, if we take those from 14 to 18, there are 149,000 unemployed. That is a very serious fact. We were told that this was one of the means whereby the Government were going to deal with unemployment among juveniles, which is concentrated particularly in given areas, and which is the worst of it. I understand that about 75 per cent. of these boys and girls are concentrated in about four of the eight divisions in the country. This is not due merely to the late coming in of the Act, but to the fact that the Government machine is not working as it was thought it would do and is partly due to the general breakdown.
There are other items that hon. Members will raise during the discussion this morning. It is a pity that in the case of such a complicated Estimate we have not more time to discuss it, as there are other matters to come on after this one. Here are several items which touch many activities of the work of the Ministry, which is the most important Ministry in the whole range of government as far as the internal affairs of the country are concerned. A good many items, at any rate, could be dealt with under this Estimate, most of the items of expenditure of which we certainly welcome, complicated as they are, but when Estimates
of this description are submitted to the House in the future, there ought to be more details given to hon. Members who sit here and try to understand them. The Minister has been very useful this morning in making the difficulties as simple as possible, but, when it comes to items amounting to £1,190,000 touching the main parts of one of the most important departments in the Government, the Ministry might well consider giving more detail in the Supplementary Estimate submitted to us. If it happens than this Estimate to be passed on a Friday does not receive a long discussion, the Minister and the Government can take it for granted that later on we shall pursue the application of this finance and the immediate results so far of the legislation of the Government.

11.49 a.m.

Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask for your guidance, Captain Bourne, before going any further I Will it be in order to discuss and object to savings on page 4 of the Estimate or any other savings. I call your attention to that matter, because of the:
Anticipated savings on Sub-head L.2. (Courses of Instruction for Unemployed Juveniles) £170,000 and Sub-head M. (Training of Young Unemployed Men) £88,000.
Are we not entitled to discuss questions concerned with those savings and argue that in our judgment the savings ought not to have been made or even that the provision is not sufficient? Cannot they come in for general discussion, seeing that we are asked to sanction savings? I would like some guidance on that point.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Of course, the Committee are obviously entitled to criticise the savings that appear on page 4 as such, but I would point out that where, for instance, the establishment of juvenile instruction centres is based on a policy, we cannot now discuss that policy. We are perfectly entitled to discuss whether the amount of the savings is excessive or is too little, but we must not go into a discussion as to whether these things are desirable.

Mr. LANSBURY: Thank you, very much, Captain Bourne. I was not raising the question of whether we might discuss the principle of the establishment, but only the user of this or the non-user, as the case might be.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Obviously, on the question of the savings that the Committee are asked to sanction, hon. Members are entitled to say that the saving is either too great or too small.

11.52 a.m.

Mr. COVE: I wish to direct the attention of the Minister to the very point which has now been raised. The Minister in his statement, as I understood him, said that there had been a saving of £170,000 on the provision of juvenile instruction centres, and that it was due to one or two facts, that employment among children had been better than was anticipated and that new buildings were not being erected at a pace that even he would desire. He seemed to emphasise—and with this I agree—the necessity of new buildings rather than temporary buildings, which will be inadequate for meeting the problem which has arisen with regard to the juveniles. I have been in touch with one or two areas and have obtained the impression that the real reason for the saving is found in the delay of the Ministry of Labour themselves.
I have had consultations in one or two areas in South Wales where the problem is rather large, and I formed the impression there that the Ministry are not providing any drive with regard to the erection of juvenile instruction centres and that delay is taking place. I was informed by the Director of Education in one particular area that the plans had been sent up a very considerable time ago—but perhaps I had better give the right hon. Gentleman the information privately. I was in touch with that area when the plans were first being formulated, and both the officials and the education committee concerned were tackling the problem in as big a way as possible under the provisions of the Act, but so far no sanction has- been given. I was informed very specifically and definitely that the emphasis and concern of the Ministry. for the time being was not to extend and improve the provision in those areas which were depressed, which already had one or two juvenile unemployment centres and others were desired, but that they were holding those areas back where there was some provision and emphasising the need in some areas where there is no provision.

Mr. STANLEY: I can well appreciate that the hon. Member does not want to give me the names of the particular instances, but if he would tell me the sort of area he has in mind it would be helpful.

Mr. COVE: It is a mining area in South Wales, with a very large population. I was there within the past ten days and I was assured by those responsible that they have been ready for sonic considerable time, but that there was delay at the Ministry in sanctioning the plans that they had sent up. The right hon. Gentleman said that there had been a saving owing to the fact that juveniles had found employment in greater numbers than had been anticipated. I do not think that ought to provide an excuse or even a reason for no further extension of education facilities. It is not only a question of the number of the children that are going into employment, but there is the vital significance as to the kind of employment they are going into.
When we have had Debates on unemployment and we have been criticising the industrial system, hon. Members opposite have said, "Look at the growth in the number of people who are being continually employed. As our population is increasing the number of people who are employed has also been increasing. That has been indicative of the general health and strength of our industrial system."

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Gentleman is anticipating Monday's Debate.

Mr. COVE: The point that I want to make is this: The Minister assumes that these boys have got employment, and I am trying to show that the fact that they have got employment is not a sufficient reason for the savings embodied in this Supplementary Estimate. In reading the Ministry of Labour Gazette for last month I was staggered by the list of children from 14 to 16 who had entered various occupations. I found that out of a total number of boys who had entered into various occupations, namely 499,492, some 155,969 had entered the distributive trade. One-third of the children going into industry, roughly speaking, are entering trades and occupations for which there is no future; blind-alley occupations. A Government that was alive to the reserves of skilled workers that will be necessary would have been concerned
not to save money on the erection of these juvenile training centres but would have been concerned in providing educational institutions of this character or some other character which would have supplied the skill necessary if Britain is to progress along her industrial path.
When one looks at this problem and reads the reports of the university surveys that have been made, one cannot help being struck by one or two grave and important facts. In certain areas there is a shortage of juvenile employment, but in some areas, even in the staple industries, such as coal mining, there has been an actual shortage of juvenile labour. But anyone who has given any attention to the problem must realise that there is, generally speaking, a surplus of juvenile labour, while any one who has studied the reports will have realised that in the last ten years or so even in our staple industries, such as cotton, coal mining and shipbuilding, employment for children has become a blind-alley occupation. There is no hope for continued occupation in those industries.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I have looked at the Act and I discover that the condition of entry into these classes is that the person has no work to do. The fact that it is, in the opinion of the hon. Member, undesirable that young persons should take up a particular form of work, is out of order on this occasion, because that would require an alteration of the Act.

Mr. COVE: I know that it is an extremely difficult problem. The Minister has ridden off with satisfaction on the point that these children are going into work and that we have saved this money for that reason and because of the difficulty of building. I have formed the impression that the Government in regard to the juvenile instruction centres and the raising of the school age have fallen between two stools. They have no policy in regard to either of those subjects. There is no drive one way or the other. There is a sort of vague idea, which has been given by the vague phrases of the Prime Minister, that we may have the raising of the school age. I am afraid that the real reason for the non-extension of the juvenile instruction centres is the lack of definite policy in regard to the juveniles. The Government are
allowing them to drift. Anyone who has seen the children in the depressed areas knows the tragic plight that they are in. In my area, and it is common to other areas, I have been appalled at the wire pulling for the most paltry little jobs. One would imagine from the way that parents try to bring influence upon people that there was a job going like a town clerkship, with a good salary, when it is only a paltry little job. There are many boys unemployed between 14 and 18 and up to 18. The problem is not envisaged unless we go beyond the age of 14–16. There are many reasons for believing that the problem lies beyond that age. The Ministry of Labour have investigated this matter and have issued two or three reports, and they find that the heaviest incidence of unemployment is from 18 to 24.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now going into a general debate on the question of juvenile employment. That is appropriate to Monday's Estimate and not to to-day's.

Mr. COVE: The savings that have been effected seem to bear out the general impression that the Government are not keen about the erection of these juvenile instruction centres. The delay seems to me to be thoroughly unjustified.
The Minister cannot say that education authorities have not been keen to help. There has been no delay on their part; they have been anxious to get on with this job. I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman for having the idea of good buildings. I pressed that more than once during the progress of the Unemployment Bill in 1934, and pointed out the disgraceful buildings which exist in some parts of the country. I do not blame the Minister for wanting good buildings, but the desire for good buildings must not be made the excuse for doing nothing so far as juveniles are concerned. I hope he will not be satisfied with having saved £170,000 on these juveniles. The whole problem of juveniles wants reviewing. I understand that in some trades there is an actual shortage of skilled labour, but the extent of the shortage is not known, and the Government are doing nothing to provide the training which is necessary for obtaining this skilled labour. This is one of the big problems of modern
society, it goes to the heart of our progress in the future as an industrial nation. Our hope is to train skilled juveniles and ensure that their skill is used in the various industries which are springing up. I am surprised at the apathy of the right hon. Gentleman. We all appreciate his good qualities, but we are surprised at the apathy of his Department with regard to the whole problem of juveniles. I protest against the saving embodied in the Supplementary Estimate.

12.8 p.m.

Mr. TINKER: We have pointed out various defects in these Estimates, but I have been wondering what a heyday it would have been for the Postmaster-General if he had been in opposition and was criticising this Estimate. It is somewhat difficult to understand the Estimate, and I hope that some other method will be adopted which will enable us to understand it a little more easily. As one gets on in life arithmetic does not come quite so easy. I am speaking for myself, there may be supermen in the Committee who are just as clear on arithmetic to-day as they were when they were 30 years old. My mind is not so clear, and that is why I should like these Estomates to be made a little more easy to understand. I want to raise a point with regard to loans and grants to facilitate the removal of workers and their dependants. There is some difficulty in this matter. Those people who remove from one district to another, having accepted employment somewhere else, are not quite clear as to their position if they fail in that employment or if it ceases. They are not clear as to the means available to them for getting back home. I have made inquiries from the Ministry, but have never been able to get satisfaction.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) wanted to deal with the question of juveniles in a fuller and more comprehensive manner than the Estimate allows. I should like the Minister to explain what kind of occupations these juveniles go into when they are removed from one district to another. I was reading the "Colliery Guardian" this week in which it was stated that there was a dearth of juvenile workers in various localities, that there was not sufficient juvenile labour in the mines in some parts to carry on the work. That is quite true. In some places there is a feeling against young persons going into
the mines, and there are many mine workers who do not like the thought of their children going into the mine. I should like to know whether the removal of juveniles from one part of the country to another is for employment in the mines. It is rather important, because our future depends on the question of juvenile labour. Adults tend to fix themselves in a certain groove and the nation has to look to skilled juvenile labour for the future. It is no good putting juvenile labour into blind-alley occupations. The productive is the important side, and unless we can give the young a decent future there is no hope for them when they go out in life. I hope that we shall have a fuller and more exhaustive statement on the question of the removal of adults from one part of the country to another and on the question of juvenile labour, because it would help us in next Monday's Debate if we had some idea of the line to take in that Debate.

12.13 p.m.

Mr. T. SMITH: I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is satisfied that the standstill order in collieries is being fairly worked. During the past few weeks I have had a number of letters from various parts of Yorkshire stating that in their opinion the standstill order is not being worked fairly. It may be that changes and circumstances are the main causes for the complaint, but I want the Minister to request his officers to explain to every applicant for assistance who feels aggrieved the exact position as far as the individual case is concerned. If that is done it will convince the applicant that he is getting a, square deal under the standstill order. The Estimate, I notice, is for £20,000 more for loans and grants to facilitate the removal of workers and their dependents. I should like to know whether there has been any change in the conditions attaching to the loans and grants to people who are transferred from one district to another. I notice that the hon. Gentleman's annual report for 1933, on page 29, says:
The general arrangements for transfer remained substantially unchanged, but at the end of the year some modifications in the household removal scheme were on the point of application.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to tell the Committee what change has been made in the household removal scheme, and whether or not some of the families have been removed. I wonder whether there has been any change with regard to the limitation to people who live within a depressed area. Let me give a case with which I have had to deal, and one which shows the anomaly. A certain colliery is shut down, and large numbers of people are thrown out of work permanently. A number of these men have to appear before the court of referees, and it is suggested to them that there is some work some miles away, and that if they are prepared to remove they will be assisted by the household removal scheme. This anomaly cropped up. One man lived within the depressed area, and he was able to get the assistance of this scheme by virtue of the fact that he lived within that area, but a number of other men, who were thrown out of work at the same pit, because of the fact that they lived over the border of this depressed area, though they were quite willing to try this work, they could not be assisted by this scheme, simply because they lived outside the depressed area. There is certainly an anomaly there which ought to be looked into, because unemployment to-day is not confined to certain depressed areas. You may have what, after all, is a comparatively prosperous geographical area, but in a particular corner of it there may be acute unemployment, where you may have men just as keenly anxious to be transferred to permanent work as men in another area. I hope, therefore, the Minister will look into that matter.
I do not want to transgress the limits of debate, but I would say that there is a great deal of nonsense talked about industrial transference as a cure or remedy for unemployment. I remember a former Minister of Labour, not a Labour Minister, assuring a deputation from the Miners' Federation some years ago that by industrial transference he could reabsorb all the unemployed in the mining industry. I thought at the time he was either speaking without full knowledge of the facts or had been misinformed. I am satisfied that industrial transference cannot solve the unemployment problem.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Member, as long as he was asking questions on these points, was perfectly in order, but I think he is now going beyond that.

Mr. SMITH: I bow to your ruling, but I was finishing that point. I was trying to show that while industrial transference is desirable, it is not going to be that great benefit in solving the unemployment problem that some of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors used to argue.
The next point to which I want particular attention to be paid is in respect of the employment exchanges when they propose transferring men from one district to another. It is no earthly use transferring unemployed men from one area to another if in that other area there are other unemployed men able and willing to do the work that is going in that area. It is a source of great irritation. It is true that when they have brought this matter to the notice of the unemployment exchange managers they have done their best to—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think, again, the hon. Gentleman is going beyond the point of merely putting a question.

Mr. SMITH: I would like to ask the Minister, then, whether he would take good care to see that none of these men from the unemployment areas are sent to places where there are large numbers of people out of work. The right hon. Gentleman may remember that in a certain part of Norfolk a great deal of irritation was expressed because a group of young miners from the North-East were being imported into that county for sugar-beet work, while in that area there were at least 400 agricultural labourers out of work who were willing and anxious to do this work. Those men coming from that area to do the work not only caused irritation to the people in the locality, but left the young chaps themselves in rather an invidious position, and built up in their breasts false hopes which had to be shattered. I hope that the Minister will look into the whole question of this industrial transference, and will remove any anomalies which he finds.

12.21 p.m.

Mr. BATEY: We are discussing to-day a most important Supplementary Estimate, and one can only regret that the
discussion is confined within such narrow limits. There are one or two of the items to which I am definitely opposed, and about others I would like some more information. On page 5, there is the item G.2—grants for transitional payments and administration, £1,000,000. It says:
The Estimate now submitted provides for the increase in the average rate of payment during the year and for the extra cost of allowances under the Unemployment Assistance (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1935, for the period 7th January to 31st March, 1935.
As this is such an important item, I would like the Minister to tell us how many of the recipients of transitional payments did really receive an increase in the average rate of payment during the year. Will he also tell us—because he ought to be able to tell us to-day—what has been the extra cost of allowance under the standstill arrangement. The Minister ought to be in a position to-day to give us information on those two points. One asks the question for the reason that when the Government. decided to increase the benefits, some of us were very doubtful as to whether there would be much increase to the men on transitional payments because of the means test. We have not the figures for 1934, but in the Ministry's Report for 1933 one notices that the transitional payments allowed at benefit rates for renewals and revisions was £4,083,137, while the amount at lower rates was £2,793,821. One would have liked to have had the information to-day as to how many who are in receipt of transitional payments really received any increase of payments during the year. Then the Estimate says:
Saving due to the smaller number of persons in receipt of transitional payments, etc., as compared with the number assumed for the original Estimate.
I confess that it puzzles me how the Ministry, in framing their original Estimate, could have made such a mistake as to estimate for £3,600,000 more than has actually been spent. It seems to me that the Ministry ought to have been able to get far nearer to the amount of money that they would need. One questions whether the saving has been made because of a mistake in the number that would need payment. Having in mind the report of the Ministry for 1933 one would naturally
think that the Estimate would have been based on the experience gained in 1933. One notices that on 1st January, 1933, the numbers receiving transitional payment were 1,097,102 men and 76,687 women. On 18th December, 1933, the numbers were 957,554 men and 55,519 women. So that there were really from 140,000 to 150,000 fewer men and 21,160 fewer women receiving transitional payment at the end of the year than at the beginning. As the Ministry of Labour had this information it is difficult to understand how they can say that in the Estimate to-day the saving of £3,600,000 is due to the lesser number drawing transitional payment at the end of 1934 compared with the number at the beginning of the year.

Mr. STANLEY: I do not follow the hon. Member. I do not see what the figures for 1933 have to do with the figures for 1934.

Mr. BATEY: They have this to do with the matter: When the Minister came to form his Estimate for 1934 and had before him the experience of 1933, one would not have expected him to make such a mistake as has been made in the Estimate for 1934. The Minister has saved £3,600,000. It makes one suspicious and makes one wonder as to what really are the lower numbers receiving payment. My suspicion is that the saving is not so much due to smaller numbers as to the more rigorous application of the means test. One has that suspicion in the absence of figures as to the numbers drawing transitional payment at the end and at the beginning of the year respectively.
I now turn to the item relating to the National Council of Social Service. There is a figure here of £13,000. I am strongly opposed to paying another shilling to the National Council of Social Service. I say nothing against the organisation. It may be and I daresay it is a worthy organisation, but I object to public money being given to these outside organisations, money that could be better spent if handed to the unemployed. One has the feeling that the more money we give to these outside organisations the stronger is the argument of the Government for cutting down unemployment benefit and giving as little as possible. What surprises me is how the amount of money that we are paying
to the National Council of Social Service has jumped up. I remember that in 1932 the then Minister of Labour came to the House and said it was proposed to give to the National Council £10,000, and the House, thinking that there was no likelihood of any further vote, agreed to the payment of the, £10,000. In 1933 the amount jumped to £25,000, and in 1934 to £40,000. What surprised me was that when that £40,000 was voted for 1934 it was only voted until 31st December.
I believed in 1932, 1933 and 1934 that when we were voting the huge sums of money to the National Council we were voting them for the whole of the financial year. To-day we find that we have to vote another £13,000. I object to the huge jumps in the amounts that are being given to the National Council. If the Government has money to spend let them give it to the unemployed to feed and clothe them. That would be far better than giving it to the National Council in order that unemployed young men may attend dramatic classes or physical culture classes. Of course the Minister will be able to say, "Ah, but there are lots of young men who are always prepared to go to these classes." Of course there are. I do not care what the colliery village is, but if someone starts a physical culture class and there is boxing the young men will attend.
One or two of my colleagues have raised the question of transference, and I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith) was not allowed to proceed with the discussion of that question, because it is a sweet morsel to some of us. We like to discuss it because we regard transference as absolutely useless. We are proposing in this Supplementary Estimate to grant a sum of £20,000, which is to carry us up to the end of the financial year, in respect of loans and grants. I noticed that the Minister referred to this item as being in respect of loans and grants to workers and their families to enable them to take up employment elsewhere. If this item were in respect of grants alone I do not suppose that we should complain of it although we feel that the transference of men is a poor solution of the problem of unemployment. This item, however, represents both loans and grants and I would like the Minister to tell us in the first place how much has been spent and
how much it is proposed to spend on loans, as compared with grants.
I have in mind the case of a young electrical engineer who was sent from Durham into Northumberland and had one or two weeks work there. He was given his train fare and now he has to pay back that train fare out of his benefit week by week. That kind of thing makes the position worse for the men concerned. It is no use for the Minister to say that the Government are doing a lot for the unemployed in this respect and that they are prepared to grant railway fares in order that these men may find employment outside their own districts when, in fact, these are really loans, and not grants and the men have to repay these loans, often when they are far from being in a position to do so.
I would also like the Minister to tell us what are the real prospects of finding employment for those who are to be transferred with the aid of this £20,000. I would remind him that the opportunities for finding occupations for the men whom they are transferring are becoming less and less. In the year 1930, 30,000 men were transferred from the depressed areas. In 1931 that figure had dropped to 19,000; in 1932 to 12,000 and in 1933 to 8,000. It seems to me that the market is becoming saturated and that there is less possibility than ever now of finding jobs for these young people who are transferred. We have not yet got the Ministry's report for 1934 and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell us how many were transferred during that year and what are the present prospects of further transfers? Before requiring us to vote this £20,000, I would suggest that the Minister should look again into the report made by the Civil Lord of the Admiralty who visited the North East and especially to read page 93 of that Report in regard to transfers.
I leave the question of transfers there, and I come to one item which the Minister himself said required a little explanation. That is the item of £5,000 to meet the cost of restoration of cuts as from July, 1934—half the emergency reduction made in 1931. I oppose this increase. I know that in doing so I am opposing an increase to the Minister himself, but I want to say that I intend no personal reflection whatever upon the Minister. In my opinion, if there is any
Minister in charge of any department of the Government who is entitled to £5,000 a year it is the Minister of Labour. I want to make that position clear. I consider that the Minister of Labour is worth far more than a lot of other Ministers in charge of other Departments. But, as a matter of principle, I oppose this increase to the officials for this reason. In my opinion before we agree to restore any cuts to well-paid officials—and I am dealing more at the moment with the well-paid officials in the Ministry of Labour—we should first restore to the unemployed what they were called on to sacrifice. They are entitled to first consideration, and only when they have received that consideration are we entitled—

The DERUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Gentleman is now getting perilously near a question of general policy.

Mr. BATEY: I was afraid of that and I do not propose to go further into the matter. I only wanted to refer to some of these well-paid officials in the Ministry because in my opinion we are spending money on officials which ought to be given to the unemployed. When the National Economy Act was first applied, it was applied to the unemployed and they are stil suffering from it, in spite of such restorations as have been made. They are stil suffering under the means test and, while that applies to them, and while I have the opportunity of doing so, I shall oppose any restoration of cuts to officials. In my opinion this is one of the most important Supplementary Estimates with which the Committee will have to deal. It raises very important questions and the pity is that, being a Supplementary Estimate, we are confined in our discussions upon it and are not allowed to debate the principles involved in it.

12.44 p.m.

Mr. GEORGE GRIFFITHS: I desire to put one or two pointed questions to the Minister. The hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith) asked him to look into some cases in connection with the standstill order. I would like him to look into paragraph 6 of the Unemployment Assistance Board's scales in relation to the standstill order. This paragraph is to the effect that when assessing any exceptional expenses etc.
the Board shall take certain matters into account and in that connection I wish to put to the Minister a case from my own division which is astounding to me. There are over 100 men there on transitional payment. The practice in my district has been to pay a weekly contribution to a "club doctor" he is called. When these men were under the National Health Insurance medical benefits they had the club doctor for the family for 5d. per week. They have not now those medical benefits and the doctor does not now get their panel fees and the doctor has raised the amount of these men's weekly contributions to 9d. from 5d. One of my hon. Friends is asking if the doctor gets it, but if he does not get it, he does not attend, and the unemployed man has either to pay the 9d. or to lose his family doctor altogether. I want to know whether in the standstill order he will instruct the officer who is assessing the needs of this household to take into consideration even these few coppers.

Mr. STANLEY: What account did the public assistance committee take of these payments?

Mr. GRIFFITHS: This has only come into operation since the 7th January, and I have had a letter—

Mr. STANLEY: I do not think I have made myself plain. Under the standstill arrangement the man is entitled to the same assessment on transitional payment from the public assistance committee as before the 7th January. Therefore, it is important to know whether, before the 7th January, in a case of this kind the public assistance committee made an allowance for it or not.

Mr. LAWSON: I think there was a new factor, and—

Mr. STANLEY: If it was done by the public assistance committee before the 7th January, then, of course, the man is entitled to it under the standstill agreement, but I understand it would not have been done.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: This is a new factor that has come into the case now. These men have been told by their private doctor that they must now pay 9d. a week. When they were employed at the pit they only paid 5d. a week for what we call medical services for the
family. They are not employed now, but they are drawing transitional payment. They have drawn it for over two years and nine months, and they are now out of medical benefit under the public health service, and the doctor is saying, "I have not got your panel card now." That is, I think, 8s. 6d. or 9s. a year, and the doctor says, "Not having that card, I cannot doctor you and your family now for the same amount as when you were in work." This means that they have got to pay 9d. a week as against 5d., which is an increase of 80 per cent.

Mr. STANLEY: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member again, but what happened to the 5d. a week which they were paying before the 7th January? How was that taken into account by the public assistance committee?

Mr. LAWSON: I think the right hon. Gentleman is overlooking this fact, that it is definitely laid down that under the board reasonable expenses have to be allowed.

M. STANLEY: That is an argument, and I am sure the hon. Member could give me an answer to my question.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: Put it again, and I will answer it.

Mr. STANLEY: When these men were paying 5d. a week before the 7th January, did the public assistance committee take that payment of 5d. into account when assessing transitional payment?

Mr. GRIFFITHS: I could not definitely state what they did. The only point that I wanted to emphasise was that now that they are not paying their panel fee to the doctor, the doctor says, "I must have from you now, as an unemployed person who is not in medical benefit under the National Health Insurance Act, 9d. a week instead of 5d." I hope the Minister will look into the question under the standstill order.
Under item H 2, it states that the additional sum required for grants to public assistance authorities in connection with the transitional payments scheme is £50,000. As a member of a public assistance committee which has carried out this work since the 12th November, 1931, when it came into operation, I
want to say that the Ministry of Labour has not been paid the full equivalent for the services which have been rendered to it all along the line since transitional payment has been in operation in this country. There are hundreds of very important officers belonging to public assistance committees who have worked hundreds of hours for years, and they have been paid a paltry honorarium—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think that question must arise on the main Estimate. This is merely an increase.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: I will try it down another channel, Captain Bourne. The £50,000 is not sufficient to meet what ought to be paid out to people who do not belong definitely to the Ministry of Labour but who are in the department of the Minister of Health. I hope that the Ministry of Labour, when the applications come forward, will consider them more favourably in the future than it has done in the past, as far as these honorariums are concerned. To turn to another matter, I see there is a saving of £88,000 over the training camps. Personally, I am pleased that there is this saving. The workers in the country are up against these training camps entirely. They do not call them training camps; they call them conscription camps, and they look upon them with very great disfavour.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member now appears to be going into the general merits of training camps. He must raise that on Monday.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Captain Bourne, but I want to congratulate the Minister on saving £88,000, and I hope he will spend no more on these training conscription camps, because just as he came to the Table about three weeks ago and said, "I am sorry for so-and-so", if these camps are carried on, some of the hon. Members from the other side will come as they did on the 28th and 29th January, and they will plead with him to abolish these conscription camps entirely. Therefore, I congratulate him on not having spent so much money in these camps.

12.53 p.m.

Sir GEOFFREY ELLIS: I want to say a few words with regard to juvenile in-
struction. I understand there is a shortage of juvenile labour in several skilled trades, and that it is a growing shortage. I think there is a shortage in what corresponds to apprenticeship too, and that is due in many cases to the inability of some parents to let their children go to work because they cannot afford to maintain them during apprenticeship. Has my right hon. Friend considered whether he could not, in certain circumstances, take juveniles into these instruction courses, and make some arrangement for a maintenance grant where he is satisfied that if the child is put to work at what corresponds to an apprenticeship, there is good prospect, in two or three years' time, of that child taking to the particular skilled industry and eventually being able to become an efficient member of it?
We may be told that that would be regarded as a subvention in aid of industry, but let me put it in another way. There are to-day, so far as clerical education is concerned, considerable subventions for industries which are already overcrowded, and I suggest it is not unfair that we should begin to consider the needs of other industries, and give an allowance of some kind to make an opportunity to people who cannot afford to put their children to apprentice work and are therefore obliged to send them to blind alley occupations.

12.56 p.m.

Mr. LECKIE: I want to say a word in favour of the grant of £13,000 for the National Council of Social Service. I was surprised to hear an hon. Member on the Labour benches criticise that grant with such severity. I know something about the national council and the work they are doing in my area, and I venture to say, after a great deal of knowledge of it, that no money in the Estimates is better spent or is bringing in better value than the money voted for this cause. It is a comparatively small sum and trifling in many ways, but it is doing a great deal of good in connection with occupational centres. I know some of the officers and I cannot too highly praise their splendid work throughout the Midland area. I was surprised to hear the hon. Member say that if the Government had money to spend they ought to give it to the unemployed. I can imagine the horror with which the Opposition benches
would receive an announcement that £13,000 was to be distributed among the unemployed. They would say it was a ridiculous sum to give for such a purpose. Given to the national council, this this money is doing a great deal of permanent benefit to many unemployed men and women, and I hope that the Minister will continue to encourage the national council in their splendid work.
I was also sorry to hear the objections which have been raised to the transference scheme. It may be true that this work is not going on with the rapidity of past days, but there is no doubt that that is very largely owing to the attitude of labour to the scheme. The Labour party says "no" to everything, and nothing constructive comes from the Opposition benches with regard to the unemployed. It is distressing to some of us who are anxious that more should be done that no constructive suggestions are made by them. When the Government try to do anything they are at once strongly opposed by the Opposition benches. I hope the Government will continue to do all they can to encourage the transference scheme because the transference of young people from the distressed areas to better areas is of the greatest benefit.

12.59 p.m.

Mr. GROVES: I would like to ask the Minister whether the standstill order has been forwarded to my area? I would also like to know whether the Minister has perused the forms which are issued to persons under the Unemployment Assistance Board. I should have thought that, as far as possible, they would have been made 'simple and easy to comprehend. I wonder whether the Minister will assist the Commitee to appreciate these wards, which appear in the opening paragraph of the form:
The actual amount payable to you will be based on the rate in Col. (2) or Col. (3), whichever gives the higher amount payable for the week (see 1 overleaf) ".
On looking at "1 overleaf," we find these words:
Adjustment of your allowance in respect of earnings and unemployment benefit will be made as follows. Each week two calculations will be made at the local office.
(a) On the basis of deducting from the amount shown in Col. (2) overleaf—(i) an amount equal to half your earnings in the week or the amount by which the earnings exceed five shillings, whichever sum is
1498
greater, and (ii) any unemployment benefit in respect of any week for which an allowance is paid.
(b) On the basis of deducting from the amount in Col. 3 overleaf—(i) one-sixth/
s. d. for every day in the week (excluding Sunday) on which you are not unemployed, and (ii) one-sixth for any day of unemployment benefit in a week for which an allowance is paid.
The sum actually paid in any week will be the larger of the two amounts so ascertained.
I have given this careful thought, but I cannot understand what that means. I understood when the standstill arrangement was made that the people who were affected would be no worse off and that, providing there had been no changes in their households and that nothing had been previously withheld from the committee, there would be no change. I do not expect the Minister to be able to deal with every isolated case, but I have, from my huge pile, brought three cases here to-day. I have satisfied myself after careful inquiry that there have been no household changes in these three cases. I would like the Minister to explain how it is that in one case before me, that of a woman living with a very ill mother who was previously getting 24s. a week is now receiving 14s. There is another case, dated 20th February, of a man previously receiving 26s., who is now reduced to 9s. 6d. How can we justify such reductions after what has happened in the House in the last week or so? It is difficult for me to tell these people that they can make an appeal. An appeal may take a week or two, and it is a serious thing for a man with a household to sustain himself on such a reduction.
I am always moderate in the way in which I put my view, and I do not frequently bother the House. I shall be glad if the Minister will tell us about these cases, which are typical of many we have received. This does not appear to be a standstill arrangement, but a gallop, and I feel sure that the Minister, with his usual courtesy, will say something to assure us that those determinations which are obviously harsh and contrary to the spirit of the statement he made in the House some time ago will receive attention. I will hand over the cases to the Minister with great pleasure. Something may have gone wrong; but in any case I must stand up for the people in my area. If the standstill arrangement is to apply it must apply
all round, and in that area as well as in any other, and I therefore would beg his attention to these grievances, which are very serious ones.

1.6 p.m.

Mr. PALING: I have one or two questions to ask and one or two points to put. With regard to the item
J.—Loans and Grants to facilitate the removal of Workers and their Dependants.
the Minister had so much to say on one head or another that I could not keep in mind all he did say, and I am not sure what he told us with reference to "J". May I suggest, in passing, that these Supplementary Estimates should contain more information than they do, because that would save a lot of trouble. Among other things he mentioned that additional fares had been paid to adult workers and others. I would like to know whether there has been a more generous scale of fares and grants to people who are transferred, and, if so, how much of that does this Supplementary Estimate account for. On the other hand, we have had a statement that the number of workers transferred is actually less. I do not know whether that is true or not, but I should like to inquire whether the market is getting saturated and whether there are fewer opportunties each year for the transfer of workers. The Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary stated some time ago that a special appeal had been made to employers in the case of boys and girls who were transferred. The position was that the wages paid, even though they were trade union rate wages, were too low having regard to the fact that the boy or girl had to pay for lodgings, and it was stated that employers had been asked to take this into consideration and to give more than the trade union rates to these transferred boys and girls in order to meet the extra cost of maintenance. I wish to know whether anything has been done in that direction, and, if not, what steps the Ministry take to assure themselves that if the boys and girls are not getting extra wages they are paid sufficient from some source to allow them to have decent board and lodging.
With reference to the heading
O.—Grants for Assisting the Voluntary Provision of Occupation for Unemployed Persons.
I find on reference to the Vote itself that in 1935 £75,000 was allocated for this purpose, being an increase of £22,000 over the year before. I understand that the money paid to these people was paid only to the end of December, but so far as the Vote is concerned there is nothing to indicate that. I want to ask whether, when this Vote went through, it was indicated that that £75,000 was only to be paid up to the end of December, as has been stated this morning.

Mr. STANLEY: I gather that the hon. Member is reading my Estimate for next year.

Mr. PALING: Oh, yes. I beg pardon. That probably explains it. But with regard to this sum of £13,000 under Heading "O.", has the Ministry any control over it, because at the bottom of the page there is a footnote which says:
Expenditure out of this Grant-in-Aid will not be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. Any balance—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Member is really dealing with next year's Estimate. I have turned up the Estimate for 1934–1935 and no such footnote occurs. I think we had better leave next year's Estimates alone.

Mr. PALING: I agree that that is so, but I want to know whether that observation applies to the money provided in this year's Estimate. Further, I should like to ask whether the bulk of the work in connection with this service is done voluntarily or what salaries are paid. How far does this money go in providing what are called occupational centres, and how much goes in providing extra clothing, etc.? A few weeks ago I saw an advertisement in the "Radio Times" with the statement at the top "Men cannot work without trousers."

Mr. STANLEY: An English publication, I suppose, not Scottish?

Mr. PALING: It went on to explain that so many people in the poorer districts were so short of clothing that charitably-minded people ought to send them whatever they could out of their wardrobes. I think that appeal has a relation to this matter.

Mr. STANLEY: Would it be the Personal Service League?

Mr. PALING: Probably it was, but in any case I am asking whether that appeal had any relation to this work. Then there is the last item:
S—Appropriations in Aid.
I am surprised to see that there has been a saving of £170,000 here. Sonic people may take the view that it is rather less necessary to spend money upon education than in other directions, but I think all would agree that money spent on those unfortunate children who have left school but cannot get a job is money well spent, and I am surprised that it should have been possible to save £170,000 in that direction. I think the Minister mentioned as one reason that in some cases the buildings were unsuitable, and that perhaps it would be better to wait until suitable buildings were obtained than to put children into unsuitable buildings. That might be right, but, if there be nothing in a locality but what the Minister terms unsuitable buildings, how long have the children to wait before a building is placed at their disposal? I am rather suspicious that, if suitable buildings cannot be found, that may be made an excuse for waiting an unconscionably long time, or perhaps for doing nothing at all. Suppose that there be only poor buildings: is it not better to educate children in poor buildings than for the children to have no education at all? I am afraid that the latter is what is actually happening.
I should have expected that the increase would have been swallowed up to a, larger extent than has been the case. The Ministry knew that a larger number of children would be coming out of the schools and that, for that reason, the demand for instruction would probably be greater. If that be so, it appears to me that the Ministry have not made very good preparations to provide instruction for the children, and I Am sorry that the Minister has not found it possible to spend this money. I am inclined to think that a cheese-paring policy, a policy of economising in pounds, shillings and pence, is one of the reasons why the money has been saved. I should have thought, after the experience which the Ministry of Labour has had, above all Ministries, and especially during the last 12 months, that this would have been the
last way in which they would have endeavoured to save money. If the authorities responsible for initiating schemes were not doing so, the Ministry should have been on their track, asking them what was being done. I suppose I am right in assuming that those authorities have to make a report to the Ministry of Labour and that the Ministry are always well aware of what is being done. The Ministry must, therefore, have been aware that this money was not being absorbed, and the Ministry must take the blame. I hope that the Minister will give us some good reason, not An excuse, why these things have happened. In any event, if they have happened, and if they could not have been helped this year, I hope that matters will be speeded up next year so that these things do not happen again.

1.18 p.m.

Mr. STANLEY: Let me deal at once with the last point raised by the hon. Member, because it is by far the most important topic which we have to discuss on this Supplementary Estimate. Nothing could have given me less pleasure than to have to announce a saving on the amount which we hoped would have been expended on junior instruction centres during the course of the year. It is only fair that I should state plainly what may already be known to hon. Members opposite, but which has not always emerged clearly from their speeches. The duty, or the power, of providing these centres is not placed upon the Ministry of Labour, but upon the local education authorities, and the Minister of Labour approves, and gives a grant. Hon. Members must, therefore, realise that the rate of Government expenditure must be conditioned by the speed with which proposals are put up by the local authorities.

Mr. COVE: I am speaking from memory, but surely under the Act of last year an obligation was placed upon the Ministry to compel local education authorities to provide certain information with regard to the number of juvenile unemployed And to carry out the duty of meeting that situation?

Mr. STANLEY: The hon. Gentleman knows that the duty is upon the local authority to, submit proposals to the Minister, and it is my duty to speed up
those proposals and to give every encouragement to their being put forward. Let me categorically deny what the hon. Gentleman says, that there has been any attempt on the part of the Ministry of Labour to hamper or restrict local authorities in putting up proposals. On the contrary, no effort has been spared to spur the enthusiasm of the authorities who, on some occasions, had not displayed quite the enthusiasm which the hon. Gentleman has attributed to all local authorities, but rather more of that laggard spirit which he has chosen to attribute to the Ministry of Labour. The speech which the hon. Gentleman has made this afternoon may be useful from the point of view of speeding up these proposals. I do not think that the idea has ever got about that the Ministry of Labour were not keen upon the provision of junior instruction centres, but the idea certainly has got about, no doubt without foundation, that the party to which he belongs and the scholastic profession which the hon. Gentleman represents, are in many cases not at all enthusiastic about the provision of these centres. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's speech, giving such a glowing tribute to their use and urging so enthusiastically their acceleration, will do much to show that the whole of his party and the whole of his profession believe in the utility of these centres and would like to see local authorities and the Ministry developing them to the fullest extent.

Mr. COVE: The right hon. Gentleman has said that I represent the scholastic profession. May I say that I represent here the Division of Aberavon? I say categorically—I made my position perfectly clear—that I believe that this scheme is only a substitute, but the Ministry has got it on the Statute Book. I have been in touch with certain areas, and the information which has been given to me from responsible people, not from political parties, is that the—

Mr. STANLEY: I gave way because I thought the hon. Member wanted to ask a question. I certainly repeat that the speech of the hon. Member for Aberavon—he speaks as the Socialist Member for Aberavon and as an ex-member of the teaching profession, and in our educational debates I have often heard him
claim to speak for teachers as such—coming from him, will have very great weight with both Socialists and teachers and will, I hope, add to the enthusiasm for the provision of these centres. I cannot answer his charge with regard to the particular area that he mentioned, as he said—I quite appreciate his motives—that he preferred to tell me privately what it is. When he tells me, I certainly will investigate the matter and will let him know. Out of 30 schemes which have been put up for approval in Wales, 22 have already been approved.
As I said in introducing this estimate, one of the first difficulties was that the Act was unfortunately passed just before the holiday season in local government as in national government, and there was considerable delay in beginning the preparatory work. Secondly, there have been quite unexpected difficulties in many areas, and in South Wales among those, in finding satisfactory premises.

Mr. COVE: Are you prepared to build new premises?

Mr. STANLEY: Yes, if necessary. The increase in the average number of juveniles attending these courses is now going up very rapidly. The average for the quarter ending on the 30th September was 11,154; for the quarter ending on the 31st December it was 17,629; and the latest figure for February is 27,000. That is an indication that this work is now proceeding rapidly, and that the initial difficulties are being overcome. I can give the Committee the assurance that I believe nothing to be more important than the provision of these juvenile instruction centres, and that the whole weight both of myself and of my Ministry is thrown on the side of their provision at the earliest possible date.
Considerable discussion took place on the item which deals with transfer and removal. It would, of course, be out of order, Major Milner, for me to deal, as some speakers have attempted to deal, before they fell under the eagle eye of your predecessor, with the general policy of transfer and training. I explained the reasons for the small increases, and the one question of real substance was that put to me by the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith), who, I know, has had to go away. He wanted to know whether there had been any change in the scheme since 1933. There has been a
change during this year. It is in favour of the transferred worker. It is rather long and complicated for me to detail to the Committee now, but I will consider the most suitable manner in which I can give the House particulars of the alteration which has been made in the scheme.
The hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), dealing with the question of juvenile transfer, asked if I could give him some instance of places to which these juveniles were transferred. I can give him an example which has happened quite recently. Birmingham is a city where the placing of juveniles in work is not a matter for the Ministry of Labour, but is run by the local education authority. As a result of what I may describe as an appeal to the local education authorities who were undertaking that work, they have now entered into an arrangement with Liverpool whereby they take from Liverpool a certain number of juveniles at regular intervals and place them in employment in Birmingham. Arrangements are made for the after-care of these juveniles, and I desire to emphasise the fact that the greatest care is taken, wherever the Ministry's transfer scheme for juveniles is in operation, never to transfer a juvenile to any employment, however good it may seem at the moment, if it appears to be of a blind-alley kind. No juveniles from depressed areas are ever transferred through the machinery of the Ministry of Labour except to employment which we believe will be permanent employment, and not merely temporary.

Mr. TINKER: Is a record kept and sent to the head office of the transfer of juveniles, showing what has happened, say with regard to transfers from Liverpool to Birmingham, and into what occupations they go I I think that that would be very useful.

Mr. STANLEY: I will certainly look into that question, because, the more facts we have about this scheme and the fewer misconceptions there are about it, the more, I know, I shall get the support of hon. Members opposite. One or two speakers, including the hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey), dealt with the National Council of Social Service. Clearly it would be out of Order to discuss, on this Supplementary Estimate, the policy of the Government in giving
these grants to the National Council, but I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the work which is done in the country by the very many hundreds of those who assist the National Council in purely voluntary work on behalf of the unemployed. The hon. Gentleman says: "You have £13,000 here; why not have given it to the unemployed?" Giving it to the unemployed would mean giving them about 2d. each—

Mr. BATEY: It will be £75,000 next year.

Mr. STANLEY: That might mean 10d. each; but that money, devoted as it is to the work of the National Council, brings, I believe, a much greater value to the unemployed than would the distribution of such trifling sums in themselves.

Mr. BATEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us why the Estimate was only made up to the 31st December?

Mr. STANLEY: Because the financial year of the National Council of Social Service was a calendar year, from January to December. Up to now the grants have been paid in that way to fit in with their financial year. In future, I understand, they are going to be paid to fit in with our financial year, and the original estimate for the year will contain the estimated provision, not for nine months, but for the whole 12 months.
The hon. Gentleman also expressed some surprise at its being possible for the Ministry of Labour in their Estimates of last year to have made such a gigantic mistake in estimating the number of people drawing transitional payments as would result in a saving of £3,600,900. That may sound a large amount, but he will realise that, when you are dealing with the cost per year of the unemployed man, quite a small difference in the number of people will mean a very big difference in the annual amount of, the payments. In the case of last year, the Ministry had to estimate two figures which it was quite impossible to foresee. The one was the number of people on the live register, and the other the actual number of people who would be transferred from transitional payments to benefit by the alteration in the ratio rule; and I think hon. Members will realise that, in making an estimate of such in-
calculable factors, a difference of only something like 50,000 or 60,000 in the numbers unemployed is a difference that might well have been made either way. In any case, I can give the assurance that there is no sinister motive behind it.

Mr. BATEY: Is the Minister not in a position now to give us the numbers on transitional payments when the Estimate was made, and the numbers at the end of the year?

Mr. STANLEY: I have not the figures here, but I will certainly get them for the hon. Member. He could find them for himself by looking up the unemployment return, say, for February last year and the monthly return for December. That gives the percentage of those who are drawing transitional payment. The hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. Griffiths) raised a point about the standstill arrangement in his constituency which I will look into. Before he was called to order he delivered certain remarks upon the saving on training camps. He was given enough time by the Chairman to denounce these training centres for the unemployed as slave camps. I hope the Chair will give me enough time to say that such a description of these camps is so grotesque as hardly to merit contradiction. I wondered that the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson), who was sitting just under him, could have sat still when he heard that description being applied to one of these centres. I think the hon. Member went on to say slave-like conditions. The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street, who takes the greatest interest in these centres, knows well that such a description is quite grotesque, and I do not believe that anyone who has ever visited one of these camps, who has ever seen the arrangements there or talked to the people there could ever have repeated r: statement of that kind. I hope that the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street, who was responsible in his time for running these camps and has kept up his acquaintance with them since, will take every opportunity of telling his own people what a misrepresentation that is both of his policy and of mine.
The hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) raised one or two individual cases under the standstill agreement with
which I am sure he will realise I could not possibly deal without knowing the facts, but I will certainly take up the matter with the Board. The hon. Member for Winchester (Sir G. Ellis) raised the question of apprenticeship. One of the matters that I hope to go into in my talks with various industries is this question, which I believe is becoming a pressing one, of the real shortage of skilled labour in certain industries in order to see what arrangements can be made within the industries and what assistance can be given by the Government for improving that state of affairs. I think I have dealt with most of the main points that have been raised. If there are any that I have omitted, I will look through the report of the Debate and will communicate with hon. Members.

1.39 p.m.

Mr. RHYS DAVIES: Friday is always regarded as a dull day in Parliament, but the intervention of the Minister and the Debate that we have had to-day has made it little brighter than usual. The Minister appeared to be a very unhappy man. He has probably the most distasteful task in the Government, but he does it well. Today he was called upon to clear up the mess of the Government. If any co-operative society, trade union, friendly society, approved society or local authority carried on its business as this Government has done, there would be howls from the Tory Press as to its incompetence. If the Government were in private trade and conducted its business on these lines, it would have been declared bankrupt long ago. It is bankrupt of ideas. This Supplementary Estimate is really a reflection of the conflicting interests in the Government itself. You have a Prime Minister who calls himself a Socialist and you have ardent free traders who are working a tariff system.

Mr. STANLEY: On a point of Order. May I ask on what sub-head this arises?

Mr. DAVIES: It comes under the letter "L". The Minister blamed more or less, as I think he was entitled to do in part, the local authorites for not doing their duty in providing junior instruction centres. Only about a fifth of the juveniles who ought to be catered for are attending instructional centres. When the right hon. Gentleman tells us that the local
authorities ought to do more, with which we agree, I would call his attention to Clause 13 (2) of the Act of 1934, which provides that where a local authority fails to do its duty under this Clause, the Minister has powers of compulsion.

Mr. STANLEY: I never suggested for a minute that any local authority has any intention of failing to do its duty under that Act, but these negotiations with local authorities often take a certain amount of time, and on our part we are speeding them up as much as we can. I should like to take the opportunity of making it clear that I am certain, whatever the delays are, every local authority will carry out its statutory duty in the matter.

Mr. DAVIES: That does not destroy the fact that I stated. The Act was passed in June, 1934, and it is now St. David's Day, 1st March, 1935. It is time the Minister took upon himself the authority that he possesses to pursue the matter further. I notice that, as usual, the Government have had only one supporter in the whole of the debate. The hon. Member for Winchester (Sir G. Ellis) was as critical as we are.

Sir G. ELLIS: I was not in the least. I merely asked a question.

Mr. DAVIES: It was a very strange method of asking a question.

Sir G. ELLIS: I got a very good reply.

Mr. DAVIES: I was a little astonished. I hope I do not misinterpret what the hon. Member said. If I remember rightly he said that parents nowadays could not afford to send their children out to work.

Sir G. ELLIS: Some parents.

Mr. DAVIES: That some parents nowadays could not afford to send their children out to work.

Sir G. ELLIS: As apprentices.

Mr. DAVIES: May I revise my statement, that some parents could not afford to send their children out to work as apprentices. That is a very damaging statement against the employers of this country, because, in my view, employers should not employ even apprentices without paying them something for their upkeep. I would query very much indeed the suggestion contained in that question that the State should subsidise the em
plover where children are employed as apprentices.
I will pass on to the point with which I really want to deal. We have been told something about this standstill arrangement. The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that it was anticipated that in the Lancashire County Council's area every person who fell to be dealt with under the Unemployment Assistance Board would be better off under their scales simply because the Lancashire County Council public assistance authority was always the meanest in the land. I hardly thought that would be the case, and that I would have cases from my constituency where, under the standstill arrangement, some able-bodied men would receive less than they used to receive from the Lancashire County Council public assistance authority, the meanest of all public assistance authorities. But I have a batch of letters here to-day, and, quite frankly, like my hon Friend the Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves), I cannot understand what they mean. When the right hon. Gentleman is looking into the administration of this standstill arrangement, I should like to ask him to inquire, not why persons are receiving less than they used to do, as in the case of South Wales and Durham where the Labour party is in a majority, but how it comes about that there are people in the County of Lancashire, where the public assistance scale was about the lowest in the whole of England, and where some of the amounts, paid in my division now are still lower than that.
There must be something wrong with the whole of the administration under this Government, and I repeat that the Supplementary Estimate to-day is not only a question of money and figures but a reflex of the conflict of interests among members of the Government themselves. We have riot heard the last about this business, and it is not the last word that we shall say on the matter. Although the right hon. Gentleman has done his level best to explain away this Supplementary Estimate, he made one remark about which I am a little doubtful. He told us that the increase of £300,000 in connection with one part of his Supplementary Estimate was consequent upon increased employment. Naturally, I am not as familiar with this problem as he is, or even as my hon. Friend the Mem
ber for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) is, but it will be very interesting to know whether the contributions of young persons from 14 to 16 are included in the £300,000, and, if that be so, there cannot be the claim that the £300,000 is a reflex of the increased employment among the people of this country. I should like to ask him—I do not know whether he will be able to give the answer to-day, but perhaps he may at some future date because it is a very interesting subject—to find out how many young persons from 14 to 16 have actually come under the new scheme.
Finally, I would say that the following facts have come to my notice with astonishment. There was a time when young people brought under the unemployment insurance scheme were dismissed at 16 years of age because of the cost of the social services. Now, however, I hear the same

tale told again, and that they are dismissing not because of the cost that comes about consequent upon unemployment insurance at 16 but because of the extra cost of paying contributions under the National Health Insurance scheme. If that is the case then indeed we have reached the stage when the Government ought to tune up the mentality of the employers of this country and ask them in the negotiations which the right hon. Gentleman is now carrying on with them that they should play the game towards these young people whom they employ.

Mr. GORDON MACDONALD: I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,189,900, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 23; Noes, 132.

Division No. 74.]
AYES.
[1.53 p.m.


Batey, Joseph
Groves, Thomas E.
Parkinson, John Allen


Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Thorne, William James


Cove, William G.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Tinker, John Joseph


Daggar, George
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah


Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)
Lawson, John James
Wilmot, John


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lunn, William



Edwards, Charles
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Gardner, Benjamin Walter
McEntee, Valentine L.
Mr. John and Mr. Paling.


Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur
Mainwaring, William Henry



NOES.


Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)
Elmley, Viscount
Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.


Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)
Essenhigh, Reginald Clare
Marsden, Commander Arthur


Assheton, Ralph
Fox, Sir Gifford
Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John


Atholl, Duchess of
Fremantle, Sir Francis
Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton. E.)


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Fuller, Captain A. G.
Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)


Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)
Ganzonl, Sir John
Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton
Moss, Captain H. J.


Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel
Gluckstein, Louis Halle
Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)


Blindell, James
Goldie, Noel B.
North, Edward T.


Bossom, A, C.
Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)
Nunn, William


Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas
O'Donovan, Dr. William James


Brass, Captain Sir William
Grimston, R. V.
Ormsby-Gore. Rt. Hon. William G. A.


Briscoe, Capt. Richard George
Hacking, Rt Hon. Douglas H.
Penny, Sir George


Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)
Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney amp; Zetl'nd)
Peto, Geoffrey K.(Wverh'Dt'n,Bilston)


Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Hanbury, Cecil
Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.


Cadogan, Hon. Edward
Hartland, George A.
Radford, E. A.


Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)
Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)
Raikes, Henry V. A. M.


Caporn, Arthur Cecil
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)


Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.
Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)


Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)
Hume, Sir George Hopwood
Reid, David D. (County Down)


Chorlton. Alan Ernest Leofric
Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)
Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.


Cobb, Sir Cyril
Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.
Ropner, Colonel L.


Collins. Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey
Ker, J. Campbell
Rosbotham, Sir Thomas


Cooke, Douglas
Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)
Ross, Ronald D.


Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)
Kirkpatrick, William M.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Croom-Johnson, R. P.
Knight, Holford
Rutherford, John (Edmonton)


Crossley, A. C.
Latham, Sir Herbert Paul
Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)


Davies, Maj, Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovll)
Lindsay, Noel Ker
Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).


Denman, Hon. R. D.
Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe
Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard


Denville, Alfred
Llewellin, Major John J.
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.


Dickie, John p.
Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.
Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)


Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel
Mac Andrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)
Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)


Duncan, James A. L.(Kensington,N.)
Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
Sinclair. Col. T.(Queen's Unv., Belfast)


Eastwood, John Francis
McKie, John Hamilton
Skelton, Archibald Norl


Eills, Sir R. Geoffrey
McLean, Major Sir Alan
Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.


Smithers, Sir Waldron
Tate, Mavis Constance
Wills, Wilfrid D.


Somervell, Sir Donald
Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Womersley, Sir Walter


Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.
Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley


Spens, William Patrick
Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Wood,Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)


Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)
Worthington, Dr. John V.


Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)
Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Stones, James
Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.



Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Watt, Major George Steven H.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Sutcliffe, Harold
Whyte, Jardine Bell
Sir Frederick Thomson and Dr.




Morris-Jones.


Resolution agreed to.

CLASS VI.

MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Transport under the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919; Expenses of the Railway Rates Tribunal under the Railways Act, 1921; Expenses under the London Traffic Act, 1924, the London Passenger Transport Act, 1933, and the Road and Rail Traffic Act. 1933; Expenses in respect of Advances under the Light Railways Act, 1896; Expenses of maintaining Holyhead Harbour, the Caledonian Canal, Crinan Canal, and Menai Bridge; Advances to meet Deficit in Ramsgate Harbour Fund.

2.5 p.m.

The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Hore-Belisha): This is a token Vote for £10, and it has been represented to me that it would be advisable if I give some brief elucidation of it. I am, of course, at the disposal of the Committee to amplify what I say in any particular or in any direction that may be desired. The Vote is to authorise expenditure upon a new service, which Parliament has found it necessary to establish. The Road Traffic Act, 1934, Section 6, prescribes that every person first obtaining a driving licence after the 1st April, 1934, must pass a test proving his competence to drive the motor vehicle for which he assumes responsibility. In deciding on the test Parliament gave no directions by whom or how the test was to be conducted. I therefore had to make up my mind whether there were any existing agencies whose good offices might be utilised, or whether a new organisation should be created. Among the existing agencies there were, first of all, the bodies representing motorists, but their desire is, naturally, to obtain as many members as possible. There were the local authorities, who had no suitable personnel for
this purpose, and there were the police, who had many other duties. I therefore felt that the most effective course was to create a new organisation, which would have this work as its sole duty. To meet the general convenience it seemed to me that the staff should be dispersed throughout the Kingdom, so that everything could be done to arrange times and places which would put the candidates to the least trouble.
There are already in existence for another purpose 12 traffic areas, and I decided to base the new organisation upon these, putting a supervising examiner in charge of each area, and having a chief examiner at headquarters. Under these supervising examiners and apportioned among them there is to be a staff of 250 examiners. For these 263 posts there have been 34,000 applicants, of whom 27,500, including 1,130 women, completed forms. To recruit the staff the following procedure was adopted. A selection board was established in London to choose the supervisors. They reviewed 500 applications sifted from the greater number with the help of Ministry of Labour experts. The Board chose 120 for interview, finally taking 13. Boards were also established in the areas composed of officials of the Ministry of Transport and the Ministry of Labour. 1,749 men and 212 women were invited to appear before them. All the supervisors are now selected and more than half the examiners. All the selections have been made on merits. All the candidates selected have been subjected to a practical test conducted by a certifying officer of the Ministry and medically examined.
It will be a revelation to the Committee, and it is somewhat of a commentary on the complacency with which we assume that anyone who takes out a driving licence is capable of handling a car, that although these applicants had long records of driving experience many of them did not understand the sequence
of traffic lights, the meaning of signals, their right position on the road, many of them had never heard of the highway code at all, while a substantial number were rejected as unsafe drivers. These were persons who were applying for the duty of testing others. It is anticipated that a substantial proportion of the examiners will be at their stations by the middle of March. Parliament contemplated that the fee should be a maximum fee of 10s. for those undergoing the test, but it has been found possible to reduce the fee to 7s. 6d. at which figure the service will be self-supporting. It is estimated that there will be 400,000 new drivers to be examined every year, and there will be 400,000 arrears to be overtaken. The examination, the particulars of which I shall embody in the regulations which will be ready on Monday, will consist of a demonstration of the capacity to manipulate a motor vehicle and a knowledge of the highway code.
Although the actual test has been before the motor organisations in outline for many months past no substantial criticisms have been made of it, and one or two minor suggestions have been offered which I have been only too glad to adopt. The ordinary driver will, when the test becomes compulsory, have to satisfy the Ministry's examiners, but in the case of large organisations such as the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Post Office and the Police, and the larger employers of labour, employing not less than 250 drivers, their own examiners will be authorised to issue the necessary certificates. In the case of commercial employers they must satisfy the Ministry that their system of examination is not less stringent than ours and that their testers are fully competent. A system of driving tests is now in operation in 24 European countries and in 13 out of 48 of the States of America, and in some British Dominions. Its establishment here is a recognition by us of the principle that a person who accepts responsibility for taking a powerful and potentially dangerous mechanism on to the highway should know how to control it. The institution of driving tests is an earnest of the seriousness with which we regard road accidents and should prove a further protection to the public and a greater convenience to all other drivers.

2.11 p.m.

Mr. PARKINSON: We are all grateful to the Minister of Transport for his explanation, which has been so clear that we can understand it. There is not much for anyone to criticise in this vote. It is quite new machinery, and for one particular purpose which we all desire to see accomplished, namely, to make it more safe on the roads for our people by having efficient drivers in charge of the machines. We can understand the difficulty of inaugurating such a great service as this, the examination of candidates and supervisors, which I have no doubt in the words of Mark Twain might have been aggravating or amusing as the case might be. We all want efficiency on the roads, and to secure that one of the first essentials is that those who drive the machines should be efficient. It is very necessary to have a driving test. I know that it does not meet with the approval of everyone, but those who have had any experience on our roads will agree that there are a large number of persons who should not be in charge of machines on the roads. That is proved by the number of applicants who wanted to be teachers of other people who were not able to pass the tests themselves. There always appears to be on the roads a certain number of people who are not complete masters of their machines. That is most dangerous, and is a fruitful source of accidents. I am not going to criticise the vote because I want to get as much efficiency as possible on the roads in order to cut down the enormous death-rate of the last few years. We appreciate what the Minister has done, and no doubt later on we shall be told the cost of this new service. I hope that those who are appointed to the responsible position of examiners will be equal to the task and that their services will mean increased efficiency on the roads and a saving of the lives of our people.

2.13 p.m.

Sir ROBERT HAMILTON: The country is looking to these examinations to result in an outstanding decrease in the number of accidents on our roads. If that is achieved, then I am sure that the difficulty of candidates having to appear for the examination will disappear in the background. On that point, I should like to know whether arrangements have been made for examining candidates in outlying districts like Orkney and Shet
lands, otherwise they will be put to a large expense in having to come to the mainland and pay hotel expenses in addition to travelling expenses. I have no doubt the Minister will bear that in mind.

2.14 p.m.

Mr. GROVES: I have always taken a keen interest in the question of motoring, and I have appreciated what the hon. Member has done in the direction of securing greater safety. I should like to ask him whether he has considered making the regulations a little stringent, in this way. I am a driver myself, and I think my friends will say that I am a careful one. I have been a driver for many years, and have not had an accident. What is in my mind is this: Is it quite enough that if a man has passed, say, this year, a test, which I do not suppose will be a very serious one, that test should last as long as he is a motor car driver? My father was a railway engine driver, and every now and again had to go through a colour and distance sight test. Sight is essential on roads. Should there not be a periodic examina- tion, say, every five years? What is the use of giving a licence automatically each year on payment of 5s. with no guarantee that the holder is in a fit condition? Are the new regulations to be so effective that the first test means the continual granting of a licence to a driver for all time?

Dr. O'DONOVAN: May I ask whether under these regulations people who are colour blind will be allowed a licence to drive cars?

2.17 p.m.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I acknowledge the very helpful spirit of the observations which have been made upon this Estimate. I will answer the questions seriatim. My hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir IL Hamilton) may rest assured that we shall do our best to act for the convenience of his constituents, although they do live in outlying parts. Everything possible will be done to avoid their being put to trouble, and, if at any time my hon. Friend has any suggestion to make to me for ameliorating arrangements in regard to those outlying areas, I shall be only too happy to meet his request. The hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) is always most helpful in the cause of public
safety, and feel very much indebted to him. Of course, I can only apply these tests within the terms of the Act of Parliament, and I should have no power to require that every driver of a motor vehicle should subject himself to a recurring test, say, after each five-yearly period. In some ways I wish I had, but Parliament did not confer that particular power upon me. All that it did was to prescribe that every person who has obtained a driving licence after 1st April, 1934, should be subjected to a test. Therefore, I do not like the House or the country to regard the rapidity with which results can be achieved from these tests with undue optimism. They apply, as I say, only to persons who first took a licence after 1st April, 1934, and therefore it will require some lapse of time before the effects that are to be produced upon the community as a whole can show themselves. But when Parliament has experience of them, it may decide to strengthen the present powers.
The hon. Member also asked whether there was any test for sight, under which I will include the second question as regards colour blindness. It is already the law that an applicant for a licence should be able to see clearly, but the regulations which I shall be publishing on Monday will contain the provision that the applicant must satisfy the examiners that he is able to read at a distance of 25 yards, in good daylight, with the aid of glasses if necessary, a motor car number plate containing six letters and figures. That test has been accepted as adequate by the organisations to which I have submitted it, but if it is proved to be inadequate, and any suggestions are made to me at any time, I shall be only too happy to do what I am able to do in the public interest. I thank the Committee, and the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Parkinson) in particular, for the way in which they have accepted this Vote.

CLASS VII.

LABOUR AND HEALTH BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the
31st day of March, 1935, for expenditure in respect of Labour and Health Buildings, Great Britain.

2.22 p.m.

The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): This is one of two successive Votes for exceeding the original Estimate. The first Vote is one for furniture renting, fuel, gas, electric current and water. The main cause of the increase here has been that we have increased the number of buildings and hirings on this Vote during the course of the year. We have also had to find a certain amount of furniture for the offices of the Unemployment Assistance Board for which we shall get paid back. I do not think there is anything else in this Vote.

2.24 p.m.

Mr. PALING: I would like to ask a question about the item on page 23—new works, alterations, additions and purchases. I would like to know in regard to alterations whether any provision is made for the shelter of the people who are likely to have to wait in queues. The right hon. Member will know that this question is always cropping up. Apparently, certain alterations are being made in the buildings to deal with applicants for unemployment assistance, and therefore I would like to know whether any provision for these people who are likely to be at these buildings, in some cases in considerable numbers. In spite of all the arrangements which are made to stop overlapping, there is overlapping, and in quite a number of buildings, no provision is made for shelter. I would like to know whether that has been taken into consideration, and whether anything has been done to provide for these people.

2.25 p.m.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: This Vote does not touch any offices at which the unemployed are likely to have to wait. The Vote is entirely in respect of the headquarters, district, sub-district and area offices of the Unemployment Assistance Board. At short notice in the last two months we have had to acquire office accommodation for the Board, for instance at the headquarters at Thames House. In some cases we have been able to take over what I might call running offices. I appreciate the point
raised by the hon. Member, and on the proper occasion I shall be glad to deal with it.

2.26 p.m.

Mr. BATEY: This Estimate raises two important questions, one dealing with furniture and offices of the Unemployment Assistance Board, and the other is an old friend of some of us and relates to the Commissioners for the distressed areas. It is unfortunate that this important Estimate comes up late on a Friday afternoon. Had it come up on another day we would have challenged a division on it and would have voted against it. I am opposed to the spending of even £10 upon furniture and offices for the Unemployment Assistance Board. I am opposed to the setting up of this new organisation, with separate offices and other things.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Major Milner): The hon. Member con-not go into that question on this Supplementary Vote.

Mr. BATEY: I am against the spending of any more money on the provision of offices or furniture for the Unemployment Assistance Board. Even a token Vote of £10 is £10 wasted. We do not know whether the Board is to continue or not. All these offices and all this furniture may be scrapped. If the Government took the sensible view they would scrap the Board at once. I am sorry that we cannot go fully into this matter and say on this Vote the things we would like to say. Then there is £250 for fuel and gas and electric current and water for the Commissioners of the special areas. I am wondering whether the English Commissioner is still alive. We never hear anything of him. Yet we are asked to vote further sums of money to the two Commissioners, who are apparently doing nothing, who seem to have no signs of life, at all and are absolutely dead. Why should we spend more money on them, especially on the English Commissioner? I know nothing about the Scottish Commissioner; I leave him to Scotsmen. The English Commissioner was appointed to deal with the distressed areas, but he is doing nothing at all in the North of England. We cannot debate the wastage of this money, but it seems to me that we are
spending money that we could far better give to. the unemployed to provide them with food and clothing.

OFFICE OF WORKS AND PUBLIC BUILDINGS.

Motion made, and Question proposed:
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works and Public Buildings.

2.31 p.m.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: This is a somewhat similar Vote to the last. The £9,350 excess over the original Estimate is due, for the most part, to the restoration of the emergency cut as from 1st July last. That amounts to £6,120. The next largest sum is due to the taking on of more architectural draughtsmen in my office for Post Office telephone and telegraph developments, and the third is due to increases in staff for the provision of accommodation for the Unemployment Assistance Board. The appropriations-inaid have been considerably more than the figure stated, but as these are new services they have to appear for accounting purposes.

Mr. PALING: Would the right hon. Gentleman explain the appropriation-in-aid, recovery of expenditure on behalf of the Unemployment Assistance Board?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Whether there is or is not an Unemployment Assistance Board has nothing to do with me. The arrangement is that rather than the Board finding premises for itself, premises are found in the first instance by my department, and then I recover the full cost from the Board. In the long run no cost will fall upon my department.

PUBLIC BUILDINGS OVERSEAS.

Motion made, and question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £5,500, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for Expenditure in respect of Public Buildings Overseas.

2.34 p.m.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Under the first heading, maintenance and repairs, we
have two items which could not have been foreseen in the original Estimate. One item is in connection with the Legation at Prague in Czechoslovakia. The British Legation is an 18th-century house, which was acquired soon after the war. It is situated on the side of a hill, and we were suddenly warned that unless one of the wings was underpinned at once there was a danger of that part of the building falling down. Two thousand pounds had to be spent as an emergency in putting the building right again. As regards the increase in respect of furniture, etc., the custom is to review the furnishing of an embassy or legation as and when the ambassador or minister is changed. Last year we had a rather unexpected increase in the number of changes in important embassies with the result that the furnishing of those buildings had to be considered and there was consequential expenditure on changes. Changes at such important embassies as Paris, Rome and Brussels all fell within the year and account for this item. Then we had a special service in fitting out the late consulate at Nanking for His Majesty's minister in China. The legation headquarters remain at Peking but, as it is essential that our minister in China should be in touch with the Government at Nanking from time to time, we have had to spend a certain amount in re-equipping the Nanking consulate.
As regards the sum of £5,000 under subhead E, that is purely a matter of accounting. It arises in connection with the legation at Tehran in Persia or Iran as we are now to call it. There was to be a road-widening scheme in Tehran which would have involved the British Legation. The arrangement was that we should do the work and recover the cost from the municipality. We took the money for that purpose but the municipality have not gone on with the scheme and the £5,000 has therefore not been paid this year, though I shall probably receive it next year.

Mr. PALING: Do I understand that changes in the furnishing of the embassies are made at the caprice of the individual ambassador or are made to suit the personal taste of the new occupier? I would also be obliged for a more detailed explanation of the deficiency in the appropriations-in-aid under Sub-head E.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I thought I had explained that item. It all arises out of the postponement of the road-widening scheme at Tehran and is purely an accounting point. As to the other point raised by the hon. Member it is not merely as a matter of taste that these changes are made. In the past many of our embassies and legations were furnished by our wealthier ambassadors out of their own pockets. In these more democratic days we cannot rely on always having ambassadors who are in a position to contribute a large part of the embassy furnishings from their own homes in England or at their own expense and most of these embassies are now furnished mainly by the Office of Works. We make it a rule that while an ambassador and his wife are in a particular place we do not make many changes but when a new ambassador is appointed we take advantage of the interregnum between the old and new ambassadors to take a complete inventory of the furniture and make the necessary repairs and replacements which are supposed to last for the new ambassador's time. That is how this increase arises.

CLASS VIII.

MINISTRY OF PENSIONS.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £181,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Pensions, and for Sundry Contributions in respect of the Administration of the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, the War Pensions Acts, 1915 to 1921, and Sundry Services.

2.40 p.m.

The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): The Committee will be glad to know that all the sum for which we are asking will go in benefits and that no part of it is due to any additional cost of administration. The original Estimates were £43,100,000 and we are asking now for a further sum of £181,000. That May seem a large sum but it should be borne in mind that it relates to a total of over £43,000,000 and therefore the actual error in estimating is only about half of one per cent. If I may put it in another form, to show the real extent of the error, the expenditure of the Ministry
per day at the present time is about £120,000 so that the amount for which I am asking is only what we should normally spend in a day and a half. At the same time if we could make these Estimates even more accurate, we should like to do so, but it is not easy to be perfectly accurate in a forecast of this kind.
I gave two examples relating directly to this Estimate. The first I am sure will give pleasure to the Committee. It is this—that one of the reasons why we are asking for more is that the death rate among pensioners has been much lower last year than in previous years. That, I think, is attributable to the skill of the doctors and surgeons who have had care of these disabled men and is a thoroughly satisfactory thing. The other is of less sentimental interest and of a very different character. Last Easter the Government decided to allow widows to draw their pensions a few days earlier than usual, to enable them to have the money for the Easter holidays, which I think was a useful concession. But no man can tell what is going to be the result of individual decisions among a large number of widows and as a matter of fact a great many of these widows decided not to draw this money until after Easter. It will be seen therefore that through the inaction of these widows in this respect We became involved in an arrangement by which our expenditure for that week's pensions fell into a different financial year from that which into which it was expected to fall. I am sure that the Committee will be willing to grant this extra money. In preparing our Estimates we always, rightly I think, bear this point in mind—that if we put the Estimates too high it does not benefit the pensioners because the additional money would not be spent and it only involves unnecessary taxation, whereas if we happened to put them a little too low, as we have done in this case, we can always rely on the generosity of this Committee to grant the additional sum which is required for the sick, the disabled and the widows.

2.44 p.m.

Mr. LANSBURY: I do not intend to oppose this Vote and this is one service for which I think everybody in the Committee would cheerfully vote the money required in almost any circumstances. I
agree with the Minister that it is indeed a tribute to those who have charge of the disabled men that we are called upon to-day to vote this extra money. I am sorry, however, that there is no estimate here for providing some mark of appreciation to these men, women and children on the occasion of the Silver Jubilee. I ought not to raise that question now, I know, but I wanted to say that because I think it would have been a really gracious thing to do.

2.45 p.m.

Mr. LAWSON: I sometimes think the pensions system of this country is so good on the whole that it is a pity it is not slightly better and could deal with a number of cases that really need consideration. I put a case to the right hon. Gentleman the other day, about a man who had been sent from the Front in 1917 or 1918, who was mentally afflicted by his service. He had been in an asylum ever since that time; until his death a few months ago. His widow is now told that he did not die as a result of trouble arising from his war service. I am a layman, but I would challenge any doctor to deny that in the case of a man who has been suffering from nerves in such a way that he has been affected mentally, that trouble does have a definite physical effect upon him. I think that in such cases the right hon. Gentleman might exercise his discretion, under the correction of errors to a greater extent than he does, even though the doctor's decision is in a certain direction, and if he has to make a mistake, at any rate to make a mistake on the right side in the case of a man or his widow such as I have mentioned.

2.46 p.m.

Dr. O'DONOVAN: It should be known to the Committee that it is the custom of the London coroners when any ex-service man dies to insist upon a post mortem examination by an expert disinterested pathologist and the cause of death is then certified as far as medical knowledge can go, and should the widow or friends be in any way dissatisfied, there is an open inquiry in the coroner's court, where all the relevant facts are brought to light. In these circumstances to ask the Minister to act in a sense against the advice of independent doctors and special pathologists is to ask him to jump into a hornets' nest,
especially when such independent advice is only sought and given on the under standing that it will be accepted. With regard to the general statement that a person put in an asylum would therefore and consequently have his life terminated unduly early, I suggest that the longevity of people cared for in our asylums by the doctors and mental nurses is astonishing to those who visit such places for the first time and who may have a general impression that those who are mentally disordered are therefore necessarily shortened in their expectation of life; such is not in accordance with the experience of life as we doctors see it when we visit asylums.

POST OFFICE.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,270,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1935, for the Salaries of Expenses of the Post Office, including Telegraphs and Telephones.

2.50 p.m.

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Kingsley Wood): We are asking for a sum of £576,000 for increased salaries, wages, and pensions due mainly to the restoration of half the emergency reductions, combined with the consolidation of the cost-of-living bonus on the lines recommended by the Royal Commission. In addition we are asking for £150,000 for expenditure during the current year on certain improvements in the remuneration of some of the lower paid sections of the Post Office, particularly the new entry ex-Service men, particulars of which I have already announced in the House. We are asking for £150,000 this year, and in a future year it will be £500,000 and will tend to rise. There is also a, sum of £343,000, provision for additional staff as a result of the increase in business at the Post Office, and I am glad to think that there will be an addition to the staff generally on the permanent establishment. The sum which I am asking for to-day means the equivalent of a full year's employment for rather more than 2,000 extra people, which, I am sure, will be satisfactory to everybody. I am glad to say that an increase of staff is taking place in the postal service, telephone service, and savings bank.
There is also a sum of £290,000, together with £30,000 out of the £100,000 under sub-head I. 1, which makes altogether £320,000 in respect of additional expenditure on engineering work. When the first Estimate was made, it was an under-estimate of the amount of work which we could do in the period under review, and I am glad to think there will be additional expenditure of that considerable sum in connection with the engineering department. There is a further sum of £93,000, remittance to the British Broadcasting Corporation of half the contribution which was made by the corporation out of its share of licence revenue to assist the Exchequer in services which we all know. This remission does not raise any question about the British Broadcasting Corporation or matters of that sort, but they made the contribution agreed upon between the Exchequer, myself, and the corporation, and when the restoration of half the cuts was made, this remittance was made also to the corporation. There are also sums of £48,000 and £47,000 in respect of certain savings of a minor character.

2.52 p.m.

Sir FRANK SANDERSON: I note that a considerable amount of extra money is required for the development of the automatic telephones throughout the country, and this may mean, I suppose, the necessity for reducing the staff in certain cases. I should like to know from my right hon. Friend if those who will be thrown out of work by the development of these automatic telephones will receive priority in service before any fresh men are taken on by the Department.

2.53 p.m.

Sir K. WOOD: I do not think that difficulty arises as a matter of fact, because when these exchanges are converted from manual to automatic, we are generally able at the Post Office, owing to the increase of telephone business generally and the very big organisation concerned, to make arrangements so far as the staff is concerned; but if there is any particular case which my hon. Friend has in mind, I will gladly look into it.

2.54 p.m.

Mr. HOLFORD KNIGHT: This very large sum includes an amount of £93,000
in respect of some arrangements relating to broadcasting licences, and there are two matters on which I should like to ask for information. In the City of Nottingham there are 94,000 licence holders, and I understand that some time ago the station was transferred from Nottingham to Birmingham. There is a general desire in the City of Nottingham that these broadcasting arrangements for the district should be retransferred to Nottingham, or, rather, that a station shuold be provided. Therefore, I want to ask my right hon. Friend, when he is dealing with matters relating to broadcasting licences, to bear in mind this desire of the city of Nottingham so that he can raise the matter in the right quarter, as he is allowed to do under the Charter. It would not be in order or convenient to deal with matters arising out of the Charter—

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Major Milner): It would 'not be in order to do that.

Mr. KNIGHT: I was saying that it would not be in order to deal with the Charter, but I think it would be in order to press my right hon. Friend that, as these arrangements are coming up for reconsideration, due preparation should be made for them. I think that that would be in order, since we are asked to grant £93,000 in respect of this service.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I am afraid that I should have to rule any discussion of that subject also out of order.

Mr. KNIGHT: May I say with great respect that the difficulties experienced in this House in raising this matter are causing disquiet outside and are a matter of comment. This service reaches practically every house in the Kingdom; there are 9,000,000 licence holders, and yet we have difficulty in raising these matters in the House. I only want to press my right hon. Friend to undertake the consideration of the new arrangements which have to be contemplated so as to ensure that this service is conducted on the best lines.

2.56 p.m.

Dr. O'DONOVAN: With regard to the question of telephones, it is customary in cities for many businesses to have separate working centres, and, if those
centres can all be on one telephone exchange, it is a great convenience because the transference of calls between exchange and exchange is a matter of some technical difficulty. On the other hand, the rental of premises is often determined by their site, and firms have difficulty in choosing cheaper sites for extensions if such extensions are not easily linked up with the head office. May I ask whether it is the practice and policy of the Department to make the exchange areas as large as possible in London and other cities.
With regard to this £93,000 which we are voting for or remitting to the British Broadcasting Corporation, I take it that I would be in order in commenting on the extreme generosity of the Postmaster-General, since he has submitted to Parliament an annual report which tells us that that Corporation has gross receipts of £3,369,000. To add £93,000 this afternoon to those gross receipts is a great act of generosity which ought to be commented upon in these still hard times.
The report which the Postmaster-General has presented to Parliament, Cmd. Paper 4813, is apparently unsigned. Therefore, the contents, I suppose, are of no particular validity or interest to this Committee. Within this unsigned annual report is It general report bearing certain eminent gentlemen's names, but this anonymous paper does not carry us very far in helping us to discuss this Vote. If the point might be discussed under this heading, I would call attention to page 8 of the report, from which we are to understand that services in Welsh are broadcast on two Sunday mornings a month. The Education Vote in England is a tremendously expensive Vote, and a large amount is spent in the ancient universities in teaching Latin. Why Welsh has the special prerogative of a foreign language used in broadcasting religious services I cannot say.

The CHAIRMAN: That question cannot be referred to on this Vote.

CLASS III.

APPROVED SCHOOLS, ETO., SCOTLAND.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,250, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course
of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for Grants in respect of the expenses of the Managers of Approved Schools and of the expenses of Education Authorities in Scotland in respect of children and young persons committed to their care.

3.1 p.m.

The UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): The first item making up this Supplementary Vote is for £635, which is due to the restoration of the cut as from last July for teachers and other officers in these approved schools. The other item of £615 is due to an under estimation in the case of one approved school and the particular expenditure upon which the grant is based. The ordinary expenditure of the school was approved but was under estimated by several hundreds of pounds. The receipts were correctly calculated and there was a higher deficiency to be met.

Sir MURDOCH McKENZIE WOOD: Why is it necessary to put forward this Vote as a Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. SKELTON: The restoration of the cut did not come into force until July and the other item is due to a miscalculation in the Estimate of the expenditure on approved schools.

CLASS II.

COLONIAL AND MIDDLE EASTERN SERVICES.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £15,000 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for sundry Colonial and Middle Eastern Services under His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, including certain Non-effective Services and Grants in Aid.

3.3 p.m.

The SECRETARY of STATE, for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): This Estimate falls under three heads. The first is allowances for governors. We always estimate on the assumption that no unexpected retirements will take place, but unfortunately several governors had to retire on grounds of ill-health. That means that we have not only the expenses of a new governor going out, but the expenses of the retiring governor coming home. Then there is the further expense of the transfer of the best officer who can be found to fill the vacancy.
It actually means that we get eight or nine cases of expenditure where there would not be any expenditure in the ordinary course. All this expenditure is on the prescribed scale. Another item is for £5,500 for boundary commissions. Anyone who occupies this office knows how difficult it is to estimate the cost of a boundary commission. You do not know until you are on the spot exactly how long and detailed the work will be. In the first case where we underestimated, a great deal of extra work had to be done because it was found that data on which the Commission were working, which was collected in 1927, was inaccurate, and some of the work had to be done over again. In the case of the Ethiopian boundary, a German employed by the Ethiopians was unhappily murdered. He was their technical expert and it was discovered that most of his notes were in a shorthand which nobody could read. The best help which the British side of the commission could give inevitably involved doing a good deal of the work over again.
The extra sum in the case of British Guiana is, I regret to say, due to illness on our side, a number of members of the Commission becoming ill and having to be withdrawn. The extra amount for the Middle Eastern Services is mainly due to the delimitation of the frontier between Yemen and the Aden Protectorate, which has resulted from the very satisfactory mission which was undertaken by Sir Bernard Reilly. I need not go into the details, but those interested will remember that for many years it had been a cause of great dissatisfaction and difficulty that the frontier had not been properly delimited. Sir Bernard Reilly went on this special mission and he arrived at a complete agreement on which a Treaty has now been made, and I think I may say with confidence that the result of that is not only the establishment of thoroughly friendly relations' between the Imam and the Aden Protectorate but a really satisfactory system obtaining through all the Protectorate. That is a most satisfactory conclusion and one which, I venture to say, is cheap at the price.

3.6 p.m.

Mr. LUNN: I appreciate the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is very explanatory in dealing with matters of this sort,
but this Supplementary Estimate for passages is a very large one. He tells us that there have been quite a number of Governors who have had to travel which, I suppose, accounts for part of the cost, but I have noticed in all the newspapers during the last few days that there is to be a tour by the Chief of the Imperial General Staff—

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am afraid that does not come into this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. LUNN: I was only going to ask whether this tour which is to be undertaken by the Chief of the Imperial General Staff and, I suppose, many of his subordinates to the Near East is included in this £4,500. The large sum seemed to indicate that it included something out of the ordinary, though the right hon. Gentleman has explained some of the circumstances; but I was wondering whether this tour, about which so much has appeared in the newspapers, was accounting for this additional expenditure. With regard to the boundary commissions, we really ought to be told what is the length of life of these commissions. How long have they been in existence and how long are they to continue? We have three boundary commissions at work. How long will it be before they complete their work? I do not think that the work ought to be allowed to go on year after year; there ought to be an end of their labours at some time or another. Seeing that the British taxpayer has to find the money, it is important that the House should know when there is to be an end of the work and an end of the expenditure.
I may be out of order in raising this point, but seeing that the first boundary commission referred to is concerned with the boundary between Northern Rhodesia and the Congo I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has information to give regarding what has happened to the wife of the Governor of Northern Rhodesia. It is a very tragic accident, and he may have more and better information than we have been able to obtain so far, and it would be as well if he could give it to the House, because it is a case which is occupying very much space in the newspapers just now and is a very tragic affair. I do not think there is anything more I have to
say, except that in the case of the Middle Eastern Services the contribution is to be made to India. I think the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us that this will not be a continuing grant, but that there is to be some other arrangement so that in this matter the contributions may be made, or it might be possible to explain why the contribution regarding the residency and the civic hospital has to be made to India.

3.10 p.m.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am most grateful to the hon. Member for Roth-well (Mr. Lunn) for his very sympathetic allusion to Sir Hubert Young in his great anxiety, and we shall let his Excellency know what the hon. Gentleman says, as I am sure it represents the feeling of everybody in this House for Sir Hubert for his gallant and efficient public service. I only heard of this situation last night, and the information which I have is the same as that which is in the newspapers. I telegraphed at once, and I received a telegram this morning to say that there was no further news and that no discovery has been made. If there is any information, I will gladly let the House have it on Monday. I say again that I am very grateful, as I am sure the Governor will be, for the very sympathetic reference to him in his present anxiety.
In regard to the Chief of the Imperial General Staff I can give the hon. Member a complete assurance that this Estimate only includes the Governors and officers of the Colonial Services. It is true that this is a big Estimate and it is quite right to ask for details. What has happened has been that four Governors have retired, and the result in every case has meant two more moves. You promote one governor, for instance, to the Straits, and the governor, one of the rather senior governors appointed, needs his passage. It means also further passage money to the Governor who is appointed to succeed him. The result is that we have actually seven or eight different sets of passage allowances, although there are only four retirements.
As far as the boundary commissions are concerned, what the hon. Member said is rather true. Like old soldiers they never die, but sometimes they do fade away. These boundary commissions will
have done pretty good work, and they are nearing the close of their labours. The one on the Congo frontier has, I think, practically finished. It was important to get the work completed in order that we might delimit part of the area, and the whole of data will be available if we can delimit further areas at a later stage. We have complete and accurate data available, and we want to get on with the work as soon as possible. The Ethiopia Commission is to complete its work this month or in April, and the other one, on British Guiana and Brazil, would have completed its operations earlier but for the outbreak of illness. As soon as the new staff get on the spot that also will be completed. As regards the question of Aden, I am afraid that is a rather wider issue than that dealt with in the Supplementary Estimate. My hon. Friend knows the proposals which are contained in the Government of India Bill in regard to it.

ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1934.

Motion made, and Question proposed:
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £250,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, to meet the additional charges to Army Votes consequent upon the restoration of half the emergency reductions in the remuneration of Ministers and Civil Servants (including the arrangements for consolidating the salaries of Civil Servants), and in the pay, half-pay, pensions, &c., of officers and other ranks of the Army, the despatch of British troops to the Saar, additional purchases of blankets, the completion of certain land purchases, and an ex gratia grant to the Government of Kenya, which were not provided for in the Estimates of the year.

3.15 p.m.

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Douglas Hacking): In asking the Committee for the sum of £250,000 in addition to that granted in the main Estimate of 1934, I hope I shall not have much difficulty in convincing hon. Members of the necessity far this extra payment. May I say at once that strict economy alone prevents this request from being a, very much larger one? When I tell the Committee that the initial restoration of economy cuts in salaries, pay and pensions alone requires £439,000, it will be realised immediately how economical we must have been in
other directions when we only ask to-day for a total sum of £250,000. Of the items which have been read out from the Chair, there are only two that I need mention in any detail. The first is the sum involved in the despatch of troops to the Saar, and the second is the payment of £50,000 to the Government of Kenya.
With regard to the despatch of troops to the Saar, I need not at this stage enter into the reasons why the British contingent was despatched to the Saar, for they are matters of public knowledge, as is also the splendid manner in which the difficult and unusual duties of our troops were carried out, their behaviour being magnificent. The Saar Committee of the League of Nations adopted the principle that the cost of the various national contingents should be recovered from the Saar Plebiscite Commission, which possessed a fund contributed to on an equal basis by the French and German Governments. It was agreed that the cost should be the extra cost only, by which I mean the cost over and above the normal provisions made in the defence Budgets of the participating Powers. The British contingent was limited to 1,500 men. It will be seen from the Supplementary Estimate that the extra cash expenditure is £28,000. We hope to recover from the Plebiscite Commission a sum of £30,000. The balance of 2,000 represents non-cash expenditure, such as depreciation on mechanical vehicles and other charges of that kind.
I think I ought to mention, because it has a bearing on this Supplementary Estimate, the generosity of the French Government, who paid the cost of transporting our contingent across Northern France, both on its way to the Saar territory and also on its return journey after the completion of its task. In addition to that, all customs, dues and other formalities were remitted by the French Government, and the British troops were given generous hospitality during each journey across France, not only by the representatives of the French Government but also by the people of France themselves. For this generous treatment of our troops His Majesty's Government, and especially my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War, desire to express real appreciation.
The only other item that I need mention is the sum of £50,000 which represents an ex gratiá payment to the Government of Kenya. The only reason why this item appears on the Army Estimates, which hon. Members might think curious, is because an approximately equivalent amount constitutes the unclaimed balances of pay due to the native carriers of the various military and labour corps enrolled for service in the East Africa campaign during the War. Every practicable step has been taken to trace these natives to whom the money was due, and, in fact, many settlements have actually been effected. But, after payment has been made in all authenticated cases, there still remains an unclaimed balance of £49,000. It has been decided that a round sum of £50,000 should be granted to the Governor of Kenya to help in carrying out the recommendations of the Kenya Land Commission, which involve considerable expenditure on behalf of various contributions for the purchase of land, the payment of compensaiton and other matters. If any details are required in connection with this sum of money the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who is responsible for this, will answer any questions that may be put to him. I think that concludes any necessary explanation in respect of this Supplementary Estimate that I need give at present. If there be anything that I have not made clear, or if any further explanation be required, I shall be happy in so far as I may be able to give any additional particulars.

3.22 p.m.

Mr. LANSBURY: Usually on an Army Estimate I expect, if I were free, I should stand up to oppose it anyhow, but on this occasion I wish to say a few words on the question of the Saar Force and to join with the hon. Gentleman in thanks to all those in France and Germany who gave such a generous welcome and hospitality to the British soldiers on their way out, while they were in the Saar and on their way home. I have had the opportunity of hearing from some of them, who are loud in their praises and gratitude to all with whom they came in contact both on their journey and during the carrying out of their very difficult duties. If ever soldiers are used, it seems to me that this is a very splendid example of how a mixed force could be used in an intelligible way to preserve
law, order and peace. It is often said how impossible it is to get a mixed force under one control and although each division, I suppose, was under its own commanders, the force as a whole must have acted in unison and on a concerted plan. It is a fine example of international action for the preservation of peace, and it is one which, I think, gives point to those who desire an international police force generally. As one who is bitterly opposed 'to armed forces generally, I think the conduct of those who had charge of the men, and of the men themselves, was simply splendid. Very few people when they went out expected that they would be able to carry out this very difficult duty in the magnificent way that they did. I am speaking on behalf of my friends who are not here, but, if they were here, they would unanimously join in what the Minister said in expressing our gratitude both to our friends in France and Germany and also certainly to the men and officers concerned.

3.25 p.m.

Sir R. HAMILTON: May I equally on behalf of my hon. and right hon. Friends who are not here endorse what the right hon. Gentleman has said about the admirable conduct of our troops of the Saar Force, and the full and whole-hearted way in which the difficult work they had to do was carried out from start to finish. The point to which I desire particularly to call attention in these Estimates is that of the grant of £50,000 to Kenya, which, as the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Estimate said, might not be expected to be found in the Army Vote, but for the peculiar circumstances attaching to it. It is a grant from the Army Vote to the Colonial Office Vote for a very special service. The Under-Secretary said in a very few quiet words that it was decided that this grant should be made. To anyone who has had no inkling of this, it is a very interesting statement, and I want to take this opportunity of heartily congratulating the Secretary of State for the Colonies in having been successful in securing this money as the result of a somewhat strenuous fight. I am sorry that the money was not handed over a long time ago. It is rather a disgrace to this country that money which was ascertained to be due as an unpaid balance to native carriers who served us
in the War should have been retained for all these years. The War was over in 1920, and it is not until 1935, that this money is being handed over. However, that is past history now, and we have got the money. The point to which I wish to direct attention is the way in which it is proposed that the money should be expended. The Morris Carter Report, in that portion which deals with the financial aspect of their recommendations, says, in paragraph 2041, that their
recommendations, if carried into effect, will involve considerable expenditure under a number of heads"—
such as the purchase of alienated land, compensation to natives in respect of their rights under Section 86 of the Crown Lands Ordinance, and a number of other similar directions, which are set out in detail. As regards the expenditure which is to be incurred, they point out, in paragraph 2044, that, without attaching blame to the Government for what has been done with regard to the alienation of lands, undoubtedly the responsibility rests upon the Imperial Government for putting matters right. Their suggestion is that they
trust that their view of the matter will be given full weight and that the Imperial Government will insist in the provision of the funds necessary to implement these particular recommendations.
Then they go on, in paragraph 2047, to another matter of the necessity that exists for improving the native reserves. They say:
We have throughout our Report laid stress on the necessity for the proper utilisation of land in the native reserves, and have made recommendations with regard to the need of the improvement of water supplies, fencing, combating of soil erosion, and other such matters. And we consider that much of the early expenditure could be properly met by the allocation to these purposes of the sum of nearly £50,000 which is owing by the Imperial Exchequer in respect of unclaimed balances of pay due to native carriers of the Military Labour Corps.
They recommend that this particular sum of £50,000—having failed to trace the relatives of those who died and to whom it belongs—should be expended in improving the native reserves in the way that I have read out. To show how their view is shared by all parties in Kenya, they say in paragraphs 2062–3:
The tribes of Kenya have suffered a grievous loss of men, and it would be but bare justice that they should receive the money these men have earned in obedience to their chiefs.
The subject is one on which all sections of the community in Kenya are agreed, whether they be the Government, settlers, missionaries, officials, Indians or natives, who all alike feel that a grave injustice would be done if this claim were not fully met.
When the report was published, a White Paper was issued by the Government, the last sentence of which I will quote:
His Majesty's Government are anxious to remove any sense of grievance at a time when they are endeavouring to resolve a number of problems which have been a cause of vexation in connection with the land and the natives of the Colony. Accordingly, they have decided to ask Parliament to make an ex-gratia grant of £50,000 to the Government of Kenya to be devoted to carrying out the recommendations of the Commission.
The wording of the White Paper gives rise to a little apprehension as to what was in the Secretary of State's mind, when he said: "the recommendations of the Commission." The Commission made two recommendations, one, that the major cost should be met out of the Imperial Treasury, and the other that the improvement of the native reserves should be met by an application of this £50,000. In order to clear up this point, a question was put by the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn), and the reply which was given by the Secretary of State for the Colonies, from which I quote the last sentences was as follows:
The total cost of carrying out the Commission's recommendation is impossible to estimate at present, but it will undoubtedly be in excess of £50,000. There can there fore, be no surplus available for any purpose.
There, again, the matter has been left in considerable doubt, and I have raised the question this afternoon in order to give the Secretary of State an opportunity of clearing up what I feel is a misapprehension, whether this £50,000, representing the balance due to the carriers who died in our service is to be applied in paying for previous mistakes of our Government in Kenya and for the expenses of the Commission itself, or whether it is to be applied, as the Commission recommended, for the improvement of the native reserves.

3.34 p.m.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am obliged to the hon. Member for raising this matter. I do not want to go over
again the old secular controversies that have raged in regard to it. I think we May all be reasonably satisfied that the contentions, strongly held, have been compromised by a willingness that we should make this gift of £50,000 towards the cost of implementing the recommendations of the Commission. As my hon. Friend has truly said, for a very long time, certainly for many years, civil war has raged in the Departments over this matter, and the Colonial Office have always: been beaten. On this occasion I am not claiming a victory for myself, the fact is that the whole Government felt that a new situation had arisen.
The commission made recommendations which involved considerable expenditure in Kenya in making these great additions to the reserves and in compensation to the natives. It, was a result for which we were all responsible. The government of Kenya acted with the approval of the government here and, therefore, it was felt that we ought to make some contribution towards this great social endeavour. We now ask that £50,000 should be spent in carrying out the recommendations of the commission, and I will tell the hon. Member exactly how it is proposed to spend the money. I have received from the Governor definite proposals as to how he proposes to spend this £50,000. Between £17,000 and £18,000 will be spent actually on land purchase for additions to the reserve. That carries out the recommendations of the commission as regards particular additions. Then a sum of £14,000 will be spent in compensations in a number of different cases, also entirely in accordance with the recommendations of the commission; where a particular tribe or persons settled in an area have acquired a claim to compensation. There is a special item of compensation a little different in character, in connection with land which the commission held was wrongly alienated in 1912. There is also further compensation to be paid in connection with other land.
The government are also asking that they should be allowed to spend £4,000 or £5,000 in the payment of surveyors. The commission thought that it probably would not be necessary to have surveyors for the delimitation of the frontiers and that the district officers might be able to
do the work. I think it will be agreed that when you are making boundaries once and for all it is important to get them accurate, and that it is not enough to have a hard pressed district officer going round in a general sort of way marking the boundary. The Governor has considered this very carefully with his advisers and has decided that it is necessary to employ experienced surveyors to do the detail work, and I have authorised that this expenditure should be included. Then there is the cost of the commission itself, which gave its services very generously and very fully. It incurred a, large expenditure in the many months during which it sat. It came to £7,000 altogether. It is proposed that this should be discharged. The whole amounts up to £48,000 leaving a couple of thousand pounds over for other purposes. The £50,000 will not, of course, cover the cost of everything that has to be done but it is a material contribution. It covers much of the capital cost which will be incurred, and I hope it will be taken in Kenya and accepted here as a reasonable contribution by this House towards an endeavour which we all equally want to see carried through.

3.40 p.m.

Sir R. HAMILTON: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the explanation he has given—and I shall be very glad to have the details—I should like at once to say that I rather take objection to the cost of the Commission being placed on this Fund, which is a trust fund on behalf of certain persons. The Commission is a matter for the Government, and I do not think the cost could very well be placed on the fund without giving rise to serious feeling. As regards the other matters, I should like to look at them more in detail, but it does occur to me that when the Government have incurred costs for putting right mistakes which have been made, it is, to my mind at least, hardly fair that the cost should be put upon a fund which has been recovered definitely for the benefit of certain persons.

3.42 p.m.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I do not think that I am entitled to say, speaking for the whole Government, that this can be treated as a sum which has been re
covered for the benefit of certain persons. It has always been the the contention of the Colonial Office that these people have a claim, or, at any rate, there was a claim. My hon. Friend knows, from the time when we were associated together, that that claim was most strenuously resisted. I present it is as a voluntary offer made, at the instance of the Government, by this House to contribute towards the cost of the proposals in the Land Commission Report, and that is the only way I am authorised, speaking for the whole Government, to present it. Therefore, it is rather a different position from that which my hon. Friend seeks to take up. With regard to the cost of the Commission, if he looks at the Report, he will see that that is one of the items included in Appendix 13. I do not think it matters very much how precisely the Government apportion this £50,000 grant. It is the policy of the Government of Kenya, as of the Government here, to carry out these recommendations, but that would cost more than £50,000. There is going to be an annual cost in connection with it. There will probably be developments in respect of the problem of overstocking. It is the considered policy of His Majesty's Government that this recommendation should be carried out. I give this undertaking to the Committee that the fact that we are contributing this £50,000 will not be used in Kenya to whittle down any of the recommendations in the Report.

3.44 p.m.

Mr. HARCOURT JOHNSTONE: This sum was granted by the Colonial Office for the benefit of the native population, and surely it should be treated as additional to what the Government are going to carry out in Kenya.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: The hon. Member has absolutely misconceived the form in which this is treated. I should never had got it on any other basis except the basis that the British Government should make a contribution for carrying out the recommendations of the Morris Carter Report. I do not want on this matter to fight the old civil war in which every Government has been engaged ever since 1921. To-day I am glad to say that the Government in Great Britain have agreed, without prejudice,
to ask this House for £50,000 for carrying out the recommendations.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.

Orders of the Day — POST OFFICE AND TELEGRAPH (MONEY) B LL.

Considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Grant for Development of postal, telegraphic and telephonic systems.)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

3.49 p.m.

Mr. LAWSON: We recognise that this is a very important Bill, and in the ordinary course we would have liked to have had some time for dealing with it. My hon. Friend the Member for Lime-house (Mr. Attlee) spoke at some length on the Second Reading. The first Clause contains practically the heart of the Bill. I want to say briefly now what my hon. Friend said on the Second Reading, that we support the Bill and wish the Postmaster-General well in this great Socialist effort of his. The Bill is for the purpose of the development of the postal, telegraph and telephone systems and it gives power to raise something like £34,000,000. As I say, we wish the Postmaster-General well in this effort, which, I am sure will add to his public stature and his general credit. At the same time I feel sure that, whatever it adds to his public stature, it will be an embarrassing factor to him as far as his own political views are concerned.

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Kingsley Wood): I would only remark in reply to the hon. Gentleman that if he will refer to his hon. 'Friend the Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) I think his hon. Friend will tell him that the Post Office is an example of State capitalism and nothing else.

3.51 p.m.

Mr. LANSBURY: We certainly do not regard it in that way. We regard the development of the Post Office as a part of the evolution of things, by which we shall travel from competitive commer
cialism to State Socialism and finally to proper Socialism. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) is not here to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General but I want to congratulate all who are interested in public works on the fact that here we are providing an example of the means whereby money can be raised for such purposes. It is often said to us, "Where are you going to get the money?" Here is a case in which a sum of £34,000,000 is going to come along without any difficulty or trouble. The industry in which it is going to be invested will carry the charges and pay it off exactly as if it were a big private monopolist company. Therefore, do not let us have any more nonsense in the future about not being able to find the money. You can find it when you have the will to find it and are determined that it shall be found. I join with my bon. Friend in hearty congratulations to the Minister, and I hope that as he carries out his private duties as minister of propaganda for the Tory party, he will explain to his supporters just as he has explained to us that a State business can be carried on without anybody outside making any money out of it.

Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the reason for the recent success of the Post Office is the fact that it has been run in the same way as a private business and not as a Government monopoly?

Clause 2 (Short title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time upon Monday next.

NATIONAL GALLERY (OVERSEAS LOANS) BILL [Lords].

Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

SUPPLY: REPORT [15th February].

CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1934.

CLASS III.

Resolution reported,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £12,000, be granted to His Majesty, to
defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1935, for Grants in respect of the expenses of the Managers of Approved Schools in England and Wales; the expenses of Local Authorities in respect of children and young persons committed to their care; and the expenses of the Councils of Counties and County Boroughs in respect of Remand Homes.

Orders of the Day — METROPOLITAN POLICE (BORROW ING POWERS) BILL.

Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the Third time, and passed.

Orders of the Day — SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932

Resolved,
That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments
Act, 1932, for extending section one of that Act to the urban district of Harrow, which was presented on the 25th day of February 1935, be approved.

Resolved,
That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending section one of that Act to the urban district of Farnham, which was presented on the 25th day of February 1935, be approved."—[Captain Crook-shank.]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 2.

Adjourned at Four Minutes before Four o'Clock until Monday next, 4th March.